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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Men wanting to be Women

823 replies

bert3400 · 16/05/2018 22:26

To think transgender women really have no idea what being a women is ? . Maybe it's time we had a 3rd Gender . Be interested in hearing what real women & transwomen feel ?

OP posts:
MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 11:17

They can feel as they like, but they have not been assigned a sex, they just ARE the sex. They are born men, and they are men. If they feel like they should be the women, thats how they feel, but they are not women.
WHY is an interesting question, but you're not asking the right why question at all

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 11:18

Oh my days grin Yet another well-informed MNer weighing in

More than you.
Neanderthals were binary sex defined, so are we. Which part of that confuses you so?

RatRolyPoly · 21/05/2018 11:18

The delusion! Biology is not a work in progress, nothing has changed since we were neanderthals.

Well no, material reality is what it is, but the framework of our understanding changes.... that's kind of the deal with science isn't it?

Science is surely the means of describing and studying our material reality - what we know currently doesn't dictate our material reality - we don't understand things to be one way and then if we observe them to be another say "nope, can't be happening, science says no".

As far as I can see we study that thing that appears to be anomalous to see whether or not we can come to understand it as some sort of anomaly, or if indeed we need to reconsider the whole framework of our understanding.

Worth remembering that homosexuality was once considered a psychological condition - for a long time in fact - because obviously at the time the framework of our understanding was such that there was only one "sexuality", and anything else must be an anomaly - a "condition".

Not so these days; these days we recognise that human beings have the capacity to experience and exhibit alternative sexualities to mere heterosexuality. The framework of our understanding has been updated.

So we observe that people report "being in the wrong body", or whatever else. It seems to me that currently science is rather open to the possibility - it may be sceptical, I don't know, but it certainly seems open - open to the possibility that this may not be an anomalous psychological disorder, and may actually be a naturally occurring biological phenomenon. In which case it wouldn't be appropriate to call it an illness, and it would be appropriate to update the framework of our understanding.

Society seems to think that's the way we're going... but obviously on a person by person level the jury's still out. And between scientists as well, no doubt.

HerFemaleness · 21/05/2018 11:19

look, it is fact that some people feel they have been assigned the wrong sex. They are born men, but know they are women. It is not clear scientifically why this is. WHY it is. Not just how to treat it but WHY it is. That is fact. Scientifically we don’t know. That is fact. I’d pretty much wager that biology is involved and it isn’t just some delusion or social construct on behalf of the trans individual.

Do you believe all women are programmed to think and behave in the same way?

RatRolyPoly · 21/05/2018 11:20

Strongmummy you said in three lines what I was hoping to convey in my whole post!

Not one for being concise Wink

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 11:21

No, you're confusing your sciences. How people FEEL is a matter of psychology quite possibly neuroscience, and . How they actually ARE is a matter of very basic biology.

There is lots to be discovered about why people feel the way they feel. There is nothing left to discover on how human sex works. Man, woman. Nothing to be updated.

Pratchet · 21/05/2018 11:23

Lot of flat earthing around here - sex is not a binary? Srsly?

RatRolyPoly · 21/05/2018 11:25

There is lots to be discovered about why people feel the way they feel. There is nothing left to discover on how human sex works. Man, woman. Nothing to be updated.

People wanting to sleep with only a particular group of people was very much seen as a "feeling" for a good long while... turns out it's not a question for psychologists, but one for biologists after all.

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 11:25

yes, they think its more complicated than that. Total flat earth shite!

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 11:26

People wanting to sleep with only a particular group of people was very much seen as a "feeling" for a good long while... turns out it's not a question for psychologists, but one for biologists after all

Behavior and actions and feelings. None of which has any bearing on the basic biology.

RatRolyPoly · 21/05/2018 11:26

There is nothing left to discover on how human sex works.

BTW this is a mad anti-scientific statement IMO. We know how the species reproduces, obviously, but that's not the only function of sex....

Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 11:28

Look, it is fact that some people feel they have been assigned the wrong sex. They are born men, but know they are women. It is not clear scientifically why this is.

I agree and I think it must be very distressing for them. The constant harping on, particularly on MN that they will never be women isn't helpful.

RatRolyPoly · 21/05/2018 11:30

Behavior and actions and feelings. None of which has any bearing on the basic biology.

I think those studying the sexual behaviours of creatures would say it probably has quite a lot to do with biology...

A good friend has a PHD in sexual selection in a particular species. She's definitely a biologist. She definitely studied the behaviour of that species.

Obviously we're not talking basic biology here - i.e. this bit goes here and then this happens and this is how a baby is made.

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 11:30

BTW this is a mad anti-scientific statement IMO. We know how the species reproduces, obviously, but that's not the only function of sex

Its BASIC SCIENCE. We know there are 2 sexes of humans. Male and Female. You know that, I know that, science knows that. There is no other sex to suddenly discover.

Honestly, this shouldn't even need to be said, but for you to claim its crazy and scientific to state a very simple basic truth of our species...WTF is happening here? Have you actually been brainwashed?

RatRolyPoly · 21/05/2018 11:31

Its BASIC SCIENCE

Yes it is BASIC science.

Very, very basic science.

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 11:32

I agree and I think it must be very distressing for them. The constant harping on, particularly on MN that they will never be women isn't helpful

It's only in response to the endless claims that they ARE women. It's not helpful for anyone to state that men are women, you aren't helping with their distress.

This new notion of pretending that men are women does not help wiht anyones gender dysphoria. It's harmful to all of us.

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 11:32

Very, very basic science

So you do understand where you are wrong then?

Strongmummy · 21/05/2018 11:32

The FACT that the earth is round is indisputable. Hence why science spends no more time and energy on it .

The FACT that there are some people who are not in the right body has not been explained, hence why science is still investigating.

And no, women are not programmed to think, feel and behave in a certain way. That’s stupid to even suggest. Otherwise I’d share your bigoted views. However, I KNOW I’m a woman. My genitals and tits tell the world I am, but I’m more than just my body and I’m not purely a social construct.

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 11:33

The FACT that there are some people who are not in the right body has not been explained, hence why science is still investigating

Thats not a fact of any kind, that is a feeling that some people have.

The fact that some people feel like they are in the wrong body, is what you meant to say.

RatRolyPoly · 21/05/2018 11:38

So you do understand where you are wrong then?

I'm sorry, you've missed my point I'm afraid. If highlighting that the biology surrounding sex is more than just penis+vagina=baby is going over people's heads, I'm all out of ideas!

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 11:38

Rat

Framing something as a "naturally occurring biological phenomenon" is just words. You could also call it a congenital neurological condition. Or a dysmorphic disorder. Or a disability. Or personality disorder.

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 11:40

The fact that some people feel like they are in the wrong body, is what you meant to say.

Indeed! No cognitive bias there!

Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 11:40

It's only in response to the endless claims that they ARE women. It's not helpful for anyone to state that men are women, you aren't helping with their distress

I haven't stated that men can be women though have I?Hmm In fact, I haven't noticed any threads in which the OP states that men can change into women. I have only seen the daily numerous threads stating that men can never be women.

RatRolyPoly · 21/05/2018 11:42

Framing something as a "naturally occurring biological phenomenon" is just words. You could also call it a congenital neurological condition. Or a dysmorphic disorder. Or a disability. Or personality disorder.

You could, and if that's best how we understand it then that is how it will be classified. Just like homosexuality used to be.

Most right-thinking people don't call homosexuality a neurological disorder anymore, do they. If they did, would you say it was "just words"?

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 11:42

I'm sorry, you've missed my point I'm afraid. If highlighting that the biology surrounding sex is more than just penis+vagina=baby is going over people's heads, I'm all out of ideas!

I really didnt, but you did.

I'm sorry that you can't grasp simple truths that even toddlers can get a handle on. You start with the very basic layers of science and you build on them. You can't ignore the very first step and then claim that its all very complicated and we don't know everything.
Please try and learn how science works. Maybe get a small child to explain it all to you?