Men wanting to be Women

[bert3400]

To think transgender women really have no idea what being a women is ? . Maybe it's time we had a 3rd Gender . Be interested in hearing what real women & transwomen feel ?

and how would anyone know which cubicles were available in a different room?

Literally contortions to try to say an extra mixed sex space is unacceptable

Hey, it's fine! You guys try and convince everyone to go for it if you like!

But to me it's not a solution, it's an affirmative action. And one I don't support.

But you have no case Rat. Except 'gimme'.

It might be something you want to campaign for Ereshkigal, but I'm afraid I don't really see it as a "solution", on account of there not really seeming to be a problem...

Lol lots of consideration of women's concerns and willingness to find acceptable resolutions on your part then!

Arf at eresh

But to me it's not a solution, it's an affirmative action. And one I don't support.

Why? Come on let's hear again why women's feelings don't matter and men's feelings are everything.

Some places near us DO have exactly that arrangement of one-third Ladies, one-third Gents with urinals and one-third Unisex loos.

Men tend to nip into the urinals one, leaving two-thirds of the loos available for women. I think any well-intentioned male of whatever identity would head for the unisex where necessary.

In the best arrangement I've seen, all of these were huge accessible cubicles, but that takes space.

I'm getting pissed off, Ratty, at your repeated 'It's not a problem to me so it's not a problem' attitude.

I like your positivity and willingness to engage, but aren't you listening?

It's an awfully good solution for toilets and say work showering. When it comes to prisons, is day special units inside sexed prisons it a TW unit in a men's prison and vice versa. With refuges, trans need to campaign for their own spaces like women did. There's so much money for lobbying and trans campaigning, should be a snitch. Rape crisis centres also.

Hospital wards and mental health units should always be sex specific spaces.

Rat be like NOPE while the feminists come up with multiple helpful ideas

Third spaces seems like a perfect solution to me (but then I use unisex facilities whenever possible - men’s when it isn’t)

I wouldn’t consider it outing at all. Thinking of some other people that might use them, I imagine my friend would. She has a son with DS, he doesn’t need physical support but she does need to go in with him as he is very vulnerable. Currently they have to wait for the one disabled toilet available. A third gender neutral option would suit her too.

As far as sport goes, in my opinion any decent trans woman with any sense of fair play would never put themselves forward to compete against women. They know that they have a massive physical advantage that is certainly not nullified by a bit of lowered testosterone. Maybe a third category (but I suppose it would be unfair to have trans women and trans men competing too)

But then again, the kind of men who are so rabid about validating their identity by imposing on women wouldn’t be saitified by this. Their fetish depends upon crossing women’s boundaries and getting women to budge over.

They wouldn’t want a third space at all. Which is why a compromise is going to be virtually impossible.

Because their ‘compromise’ is only ever going to involve complete capitulation by women, decreased safeguarding for children (see the current horrific girl guides guidelines where any man will get to provide personal care to a young girl if he just says he is a woman, no hormones, GRC or surgery required) and the removal of gender dysphoria as a mental health condition (which is going to leave those genuinely in torment right in the shit)

I've decided to self identify as Heron
Sadly this doesn't make me a heron because fundamentally I can't fly.

I sometimes feel like this entire topic of discussion is just one giant wind up from a bunch of Monty Python fans ..

and is in fact the only sensible response to any of this utter nonsense.

thanks Truscum I agree with everything you say

I'm getting pissed off, Ratty, at your repeated 'It's not a problem to me so it's not a problem' attitude.

Kitties I was just about to say you're arrangement sounds great!

I've spoken to Pratchet about toilets loads before and I do think there are options available to us that include unisex options that would make the trans toilet issue null and void

I support those solutions and would campaign for them, because they solve problems like line-inequality, parents having to separate from kids when using facilities, and the societal problems of "othering" female biology.

For the reasons I support alternative toilet arrangements.

But I don't support affirmative action that is a reaction to a situation everybody was happy with up until self-ID was put on the table.

But I don't think that matters really; our differences of approach; if we can agree on the outcome.

Thinking of some other people that might use them, I imagine my friend would

Yesssssssss, we had a big (mostly not trans related) thread about current toilet facilities and there are far better arrangements for men, women, families and transpeople than what we have now.

Rat why are you claiming there isn't a problem? Plainly there's a problem: trans want mixed sex spaces and women want women only spaces.

And how would anyone know which cubicles were empty in a different room?

But I don't support affirmative action that is a reaction to a situation everybody was happy with up until self-ID was put on the table.

That's not true. It's not the issue of GRA self ID per se. It's aggressive transactivism and women waking up to the misogyny of the trans agenda and that laws have been made which are eroding women's rights. The previous honour system was discreet and largely respectful. But yes, trans identified males would have stood out and caused alarm if they didn't bother to attempt to present as female. So they knew they weren't going to get away with the kind of aggressive male socialised behaviour we're increasingly seeing now.

Because their ‘compromise’ is only ever going to involve complete capitulation by women, decreased safeguarding for children (see the current horrific girl guides guidelines where any man will get to provide personal care to a young girl if he just says he is a woman, no hormones, GRC or surgery required) and the removal of gender dysphoria as a mental health condition (which is going to leave those genuinely in torment right in the shit)

YY Truscum.

The argument seems to be that some men make themselves look just enough like women in order to violate our boundaries and privacy enter women's spaces without being clocked, so now we should feel sorry for the ones that can't, and let them in too.

That's exactly what TRAs and their allies think.

@fontofnoknowledge I know right! I think of that sketch whenever I read this stuff - it’s bonkers that something that was one of the best known comedy moments of its era is now our reality.

If we just answer all men claiming to be women with the line
"That's all very nice but appears to be symbolic of your struggle with reality.. " it should put this utter bollocks back in the 'comedy classics' where it belongs. !
Honestly , the only way to counter this ridiculous issue is to stop giving it headspace as serious. Make fun of it. It's the only way.

I do not for one moment disbelieve that some people feel like they have been born into the wrong sex. And that they wish to change genders.
If a biological man has his genitalia removed then fine he is a transwoman. No operation? Still has a penis ? Then he's a man. What he ISN'T is a woman. ! Not unless he's grown his own ovaries and boobs .

I'm just reading this thread every so often so forgive me for just throwing my two pennoth in slightly at random..

But reading just now about the 'banishment' cubicle and outing conundrum, it occurred to me that this aspect shows just how different trans issues are from LGB issues (from my straight perspective so forgive me if I am not fully informed). I've read so many posts saying that T should not be with the LGB.

As I understand it, progress for the LGB community was partly about being seen and accepted as L or G. Being as visible or noticeable as you want to be LGB eg holding hands, having family days out and it being no big deal, just another human having a life. The opposite of feeling the need to hide or disguise who your partner was for fear of attack or discrimination.

But for trans people it seems to me there is a want for being trans to be accepted as just another way to live (fine) but also there is want to not be visible as trans (which I can understand for reasons of alleviating body dysmorphia) and so wanting to hide it; the transpeople who pass probably do not want to revelaled and those who do not pass do not want it mentioned and so it is the opposite situation to 'being out and proud' it seems to me.

As well as the obvous serious issues of TRAs and women's rights, this appears to be fundamentally a rather unique and confounding problem of how to give trans status acceptance if it is also something to be kept secret, and something which is often so obviously visible (and in a different way to being LGB).

The things seem mutually incompatible. And I especially wonder how this works with prospective relationships. (I can imagine this must be somewhat of a nightmare to navigate for trans people who do pass).

And this perhaps is where we have so much trouble with TRA's trying to desperately and aggressivel force others to 'buy into the lie', to create this New Speak/ Emperors New Clothes/ not talking about the elephant in the room situation, regarding trans status.

I'm being clumsy and incomprehensible, but what I am trying to say is that I don't at the moment see how we can reconcile women's rights, and uphold the science of bilogical sex etc, with some trans people's need to be accepted.. yet hidden in plain sight.. but for no one to mention 'it', unless they decide to. It is so opposite to what other oppressed groups have wanted to achieve throughout history I think. (Not that all trans people want the same obviously, but this is the TRA message).

We now all seem to be caught up in a giant psychological trans-dysmorphic tangle of how to reconcile the unreconcilable... gender dysmorphic condition with biological birth sex, something which trans people cannot or severely struggle to do, and we as society can reach no more of a 'perfect answer' than a transperson.. ie ultimately they might want a magic wand magically change sex and have it actually and simply just be so, and yet no wand exists or will ever exist.

For people like curry who have gained acceptance of their reality (with some really amazingly challenging soul searching I am sure), the solution is easier perhaps, and existing solutions working reasonably well.

But I worry that the very nature of trans-ness means that some trans people will never be able to have will just never have the perfect answer and acceptance that they wish to have, because it just doesn't all tie up neatly. The problem and solution is full of contradictions and competing realities where no answer will fit all the problems/ wishes of TRAs.

This is why it would be all just be SO MUCH EASIER if women would just SHUT UP and say that transwomen are women and its all fine and not really happening at all anyway, and we can all go about happily having suspended reality.

I am sad and sorry for any trans person in pain. I and family can relate as have illness/conditions that have fundamentally altered our bodies... and from that reduced our abilities, goals, circumstances, etc, but yet as no magic wand exists, we have to learn to accept our new realities. It hurts like hell and is frequently devastatingly depressing, but the choice for us is learn to accept and some how get on, or misery/ suicide at the end of the day... shit but true.

Sorry for the ramble. What a fucking nightmare this all is. So many serious issues and actually something as 'simple' as toilet provision s is actually one of them!??!

But I worry that the very nature of trans-ness means that some trans people will never be able to have will just never have the perfect answer and acceptance that they wish to have, because it just doesn't all tie up neatly. The problem and solution is full of contradictions and competing realities where no answer will fit all the problems/ wishes of TRAs.

This is so true. Great post.

unplug you are absolutely correct.

And if what the TRA movement wanted was to increase acceptance of anyone presenting in a way outside the narrow crappy gender stereotype boxes we have I would be there right next to them. Gender oppressed all of us. Let smash it to bits. You wear, dress like, look like whatever the heck you like. There’s no one narrow way to be a woman, or a man.

But that as you point out is exactly the opposite of what’s being pushed. Gender stereotypes are narrowing. Anyone outside those narrow boxes now has to be the other sex. But of course they can be because humans can’t change sex. So this huge, destructive mindfuck of a concept has sprung up, and in the process it’s threatening women and children.

It’s all so ridiculously surreal and unnecessary...