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Original poster

Men wanting to be Women

823 replies

bert3400 · 16/05/2018 22:26

To think transgender women really have no idea what being a women is ? . Maybe it's time we had a 3rd Gender . Be interested in hearing what real women & transwomen feel ?

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 13:06

The toilet would be a specific third space for trans people with the gender neutral sign on the door and would also expand provision for disabled people.

RatRolyPoly · 20/05/2018 13:10

Sounds fine in theory for loos, although of course your passing transpeople still be unlikely to wait for that cubicle if they know they can simply use the ladies/men's. So not really all that different from what we have now then - except non-passing trans people should use this extra disabled cubicle, which (from what I've heard) is what they mostly do anyway for fear of being challenged.

And then you have to wonder, what do we do until everywhere has this second disabled toilet... probably just carry on as we are.

Metoodear · 20/05/2018 13:12

Pratchet Because the issue is very clear trans men know given the choice of men’s -women’s and a -third loo biological women would always choose to use the women’s and the only people who would be in the third space would be trans people

RatRolyPoly · 20/05/2018 13:13

The toilet would be a specific third space for trans people with the gender neutral sign on the door and would also expand provision for disabled people.

Oooohhhhh, so it would out them.

Metoodear · 20/05/2018 13:13

That’s is why they don’t want it

Pratchet · 20/05/2018 13:14

Not in my opinion. It would an additional mixed sex space. With an accessible option. What's wrong with that?

Metoodear · 20/05/2018 13:15

Even if you had men women and ? On the doors the only people would use ? Would be trans people and a few confused teens

I could bet my house that 99% of biological women would always choose women’s loos

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 13:15

Sounds fine in theory for loos,

Excellent, glad you agree.

although of course your passing transpeople still be unlikely to wait for that cubicle if they know they can simply use the ladies/men's.

Yes, we'd have to rely on males who pass as female to do the decent thing and respect women's boundaries, which we know many of them won't. Still, women won't know if they are there, which isn't ideal but at least we won't be made to feel humiliated and uncomfortable.

And then you have to wonder, what do we do until everywhere has this second disabled toilet... probably just carry on as we are.

Well given that it is a reasonable proposal to accommodate both sets of needs, perhaps you could write to people suggesting it, Rat? Given that you're all about the solutions.

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 13:17

Oooohhhhh, so it would out them.

No, it's a gender neutral accessible toilet with a gender neutral/accessible sign. It would be added by organisations to make provision for trans people and extra disabled provision.

Metoodear · 20/05/2018 13:17

Pratchet Just pointed out why

RatRolyPoly · 20/05/2018 13:18

Not in my opinion. It would an additional mixed sex space. With an accessible option. What's wrong with that?

Like I've said, if every other woman is waiting for any one of five cubicles and you're waiting for one, that's pretty blatant. And the "hidden disability" disguise isn't going to work if the accessible/neutral loo is right alongside the men's and ladies'.

As it stands I think a good number of non-passing transpeople use the disabled anyway, and if they do pass they're unlikely to use the banishment cubicle anyway are they.

So.... things would be much as they are now.

Although having an extra accessible cubicle can only be a good thing.

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 13:19

No, because it's a gender neutral toilet which is accessible. So there could be any number of reasons why someone would use it.

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 13:20

Although having an extra accessible cubicle can only be a good thing.

Yes. So glad you agree with this reasonable suggestion!

Metoodear · 20/05/2018 13:23

RatRolyPoly Agreed we have a trans man guy (very unconvincing May I add ) who comes to a group I attend and she uses the disabled however not sure why as she looks like a very very butch women rather than a man but I guess it’s all
Hand Maidens tale convincing yourself you something your not wouldn’t really work if your still using the ladies

Pratchet · 20/05/2018 13:23

Rat: you are contradicting yourself like fury. If your in a mixed sex toilet waiting no one knows what cubicles are few in the women's. How would they know?

Metoodear · 20/05/2018 13:25

Ereshkigal No all biological women would use the women’s their are no women I know who would opt for mixed sex changing or showering when single sex was a option

Pratchet · 20/05/2018 13:25

Women who identify as men could use the men's, why not? If they pass, why would they use the women's?

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 13:25

Like I've said, if every other woman is waiting for any one of five cubicles and you're waiting for one, that's pretty blatant.

In most cases, it's pretty blatant that the person isn't actually a woman. So we're talking about quite a small number of people here. And they could be waiting for the accessible/gender neutral toilet for a whole range of reasons.

Pratchet · 20/05/2018 13:25

all biological women would use the women’s their are no women I know who would opt for mixed sex changing or showering when single sex was a option

Hardly an argument for mixed sex facilities

Pratchet · 20/05/2018 13:27

Literally contortions to try to say an extra mixed sex space is unacceptable Hmm

Pratchet · 20/05/2018 13:28

in most cases, it's pretty blatant that the person isn't actually a woman the massive elephant in the room of the 'outing' argument

RatRolyPoly · 20/05/2018 13:28

Well given that it is a reasonable proposal to accommodate both sets of needs, perhaps you could write to people suggesting it, Rat? Given that you're all about the solutions.

It might be something you want to campaign for Ereshkigal, but I'm afraid I don't really see it as a "solution", on account of there not really seeming to be a problem...

As I've said:

There weren't huge problems reported as a result of transwomen sharing loos with women, as has been happening for decades, were there? This wasn't a case of "women everywhere are staying home because of this, how do we make things better?".

No.

This was a case of transwomen and women sharing loos etc. for yonks, the government saying "let's make things better for transpeople", loads of people suddenly paying attention and saying, "wait, what? There are transwomen in our toilets?!?".

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 13:28

No all biological women would use the women’s their are no women I know who would opt for mixed sex changing or showering when single sex was a option

I was specifically discussing toilets. Changing and showering is a more controversial situation with stronger arguments for female privacy. I'm afraid whether a trans identified male feels outed if they're not welcome in a female shower isn't going to be my primary concern.

Metoodear · 20/05/2018 13:28

Pratchet I think this is the crux a lot of them don’t pass

The guy who live down my road looks like a bloke in women’s clothing and for some reason transgender people always wear very tarty type clothing the type of stuff my husband would buy if I asked him to get me something
Leather skirts very short that sort of thing

And the women who is trans and my group just looks like a very butch women
I think tbh I just assumed she was a lesbian but she is trans

Pratchet · 20/05/2018 13:29

Why are you claiming there is no problem?

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