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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Men wanting to be Women

823 replies

bert3400 · 16/05/2018 22:26

To think transgender women really have no idea what being a women is ? . Maybe it's time we had a 3rd Gender . Be interested in hearing what real women & transwomen feel ?

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 12:05

We can’t change science to make anyone feel better I’m afraid.

No. And it's quite disturbing that people expect this.

RatRolyPoly · 20/05/2018 12:10

I didn't actually say I was prepared to compromise on things I consider unfair. Which of my suggestions are unreasonable Rat?

Ereshkigal I was responding to Curry who said that [the "TERF"s] "don't want to shove transwomen under a bus, they want to find a solution that will work for everyone and won't impact other people".

Which of your solutions work for everyone including transpeople?

You aren't obliged to compromise Ereshkigal, but if Curry's telling me the bulk of GC posters out there want to find a solution that works for the trans community and isn't just an expression of their own desires, I'm surprised I haven't seen more of them.

Because most of the ones I've met are very much like you Ereshkigal, which is completely okay, but I wouldn't say you're especially minded to take what the trans community actually want into any sort of account.

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 12:14

Why aren't third spaces an acceptable solution?

No solution works both for women who don't want to have their privacy invaded, and males who wish to invade women's privacy. That is a zero sum game.

SarahJane73 · 20/05/2018 12:33

Are you for real? They are not trying to invade your safe places. They are not going into toilets to rape women and children (please show me the statistics on that, I would love to see them). They are not trying to get into womens prisons to molest other women, they are not stealing medals from women (if you are referring to the south african athlete she had dna test and sorry but she is a woman). They are not attacking women in the streets (I would love to see the statistics on that).

I can't tell if you are just completely ignorant about this topic or a troll but I'll go along with it. I, and many others, started out 'on the other side' of this argument until we educated ourselves (and became increasingly horrified at what is going on).

Although there are a lot of individual cases of males (whether trans-identifying or not) assaulting women in 'gender neutral or women's toilets and changing rooms (and even in refuges, where women are seeking sanctuary from abusive males in a single-sex environment
torontosun.com/2014/02/26/predator-who-claimed-to-be-transgender-declared-dangerous-offender/wcm/fc2c70f0-b1a1-41e2-85db-bec9d0012ce5 ) it is difficult to get stats because crimes committed by males are being recorded as crimes committed by women. This is also increasingly the case in the media who will report the crimes as being committed by a woman - so you will see cases of women sexually assaulting other women when actually the perpetrator is male. Having said that a study was done on the impact of a 'gender inclusion' policy in one of the biggest chain of stores in the US which showed a large increase in sexual offences: womanmeanssomething.com/targetstudy/

In terms of 'trying to get into women's prisons to molest women' - Yes, they are - although the 'they' I am referring to here is 'males' not particularly trans people because self-ID enables any male to say they are a woman for their own purposes.

This is a rapist - with a penis - who was moved into a women's prison and then started sexually harassing the female inmates: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4856268/Transgender-rapist-moved-women-jail-segregated.html

This is evidence to Parliament from the President of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists about the increasing numbers of serious sex offenders who are identifying as women:

data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/transgender-equality/written/19532.html

relevant section:

"...the ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this."

He (and I) aren't saying that transwomen (as in those who genuinely suffer from dysphoria) are all sex offenders - but, under self-ID any man can identify as a woman and it is these sex offenders (both the convicted and non-convicted on the outside) who will take advantage of this.

Re: sport, no, we're not talking about Caster Semenya but all the males competing in women's sport who, regardless of how they identify, have a whole host of physical advantages over women (and , no, slightly suppressing your testosterone level doesn't remove these advantages).

These are just a few of the many examples:

whoatv.com/exclusive-fallon-foxs-latest-opponent-opens-up-to-whoatv/

www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/04/transgender-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-might-have-unfair-advantage-expert.html

wwos.nine.com.au/2018/05/08/12/54/hannah-mouncey-transgender-athlete-should-not-play-aflw-chris-judd-caroline-wilson

This article illustrates the physical differences between men and women's bodies.

fairplayforwomen.com/biological-sex-differences/

It's worth asking why sex segregation was introduced in these different areas in the first place. In the case of sport, it was because of the physical differences between men and women, in the case of refuges, prisons, changing rooms etc it was because of the risk to women of male sex offenders (and also for reasons of privacy and, in the case of refuges to give women who have been traumatised by male violence space to recover away from men).

Have all these issues gone away? Are there no longer physical differences between men and women? Following #metoo, is male sexual violence, harassment, domestic abuse etc all sorted and no longer a problem? If not, why are we as a society taking steps which will significantly disadvantage women and girls?

Pratchet · 20/05/2018 12:38

Rat: whilst bemoaning our 'no' you seem to think we should cave to everything demanded by trans activists. Third spaces are exactly the compromise needed. It's profoundly unreasonable to be offered a third safe space and reject it. Or a mixed sex space in addition to retaining women's spaces. If you want to side with unreasonable people, knock yourself out. But it's not persuasive.

SarahJane73 · 20/05/2018 12:39

I forgot to respond to the 'they're not attacking women in the streets' comment:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-attacker-tara-wolf-is-a-thug-says-feminist-maria-maclachlan-pq0bwvthv

Pratchet · 20/05/2018 12:40

There is only one reason to reject additional third spaces: and that would be because the true aim of this activism is to destroy every single female only space.

RatRolyPoly · 20/05/2018 12:41

No solution works both for women who don't want to have their privacy invaded, and males who wish to invade women's privacy. That is a zero sum game.

Uh-huh, when you summarise the GC versus trans positions like that it's really very clear that most GC posters couldn't possibly contemplate a "solution that works for everyone".

...which is why I was so surprised when Curry said that's what they were trying to do.

And third spaces; they would actually make things worse for transpeople than what we have now!

Not only would they "out" them in every single avenue of public life, undoubtedly causing many not to participate in it at all, but they would also open them up to whatever reaction they may get from all the very many people who have an "ideological" issue with trans. So, you know, prejudice.

Why on earth would third spaces be a good result from a debate that hit the public discourse as a result of the government trying to make life easier for transpeople? It would be better for them of nothing changed.

Pratchet · 20/05/2018 12:43

Not at all: you don't call it a trans space, why would you🤔It's just an additional toilet but mixed sex. Why would it out them to use it?

RatRolyPoly · 20/05/2018 12:48

Rat: whilst bemoaning our 'no' you seem to think we should cave to everything demanded by trans activists

I'm not bemoaning it, I'm just surprised Curry hasn't heard it. Curry seemed to be under the impression there was scope for working towards a shared solution. It doesn't seem that you guys agree.

Third spaces are exactly the compromise needed.

Except they're a compromise to a problem that never presented itself.

There weren't huge problems reported as a result of transwomen sharing loos with women, as has been happening for decades, were there? This wasn't a case of "women everywhere are staying home because of this, how do we make things better?".

No.

This was a case of transwomen and women sharing loos etc. for yonks, the government saying "let's make things better for transpeople", loads of people suddenly paying attention and saying, "wait, what? There are transwomen in our toilets?!?".

So suddenly ejecting those transwomen out to third spaces is quite the opposite of "compromise" isn't it!

Pratchet · 20/05/2018 12:51

But there is a problem. Women want sex specific spaces. Transactivists want mixed sex. Compromise: offer both. Why would it out trans people if they use a mixed sex toilet?

RatRolyPoly · 20/05/2018 12:52

Why would it out them to use it?

Right, so imagine your little "banishment cubicle" is engaged - likely it will be if anyone can use it.

Imagine cubicles become free in the ladies.

But you're stood the like a lemon waiting in the queue for the banishment cubicle.

Whilst cubicle after cubicle becomes free in the ladies (why is this person taking so long??), and all your colleagues keep asking you why you don't just use the free cubicles, you know, because.... oh.

You see?

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 12:52

Uh-huh, when you summarise the GC versus trans positions like that it's really very clear that most GC posters couldn't possibly contemplate a "solution that works for everyone".

I don't believe in being mealy mouthed and disingenuous. That is exactly what is being demanded here. That women give up privacy.

SarahJane73 · 20/05/2018 12:53

For those trying to compare this to being anti-gay, besides this not being anti-trans people (not all trans people support self-ID or the current transactivist movement), the current brand of transactivism is deeply homophobic (both in encouraging gay and lesbian young people to transition to heterosexuality and in viewing homosexuality - as opposed to 'homo-genderuality' - as being morally wrong). A significant number of those campaigning against self-ID are lesbians.

This thread gives a bit of background:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146166-Transactivism-and-the-lesbian-community

And this is a recent article on the subject:

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/the-silencing-of-the-lesbians/

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 12:53

Right, so imagine your little "banishment cubicle" is engaged - likely it will be if anyone can use it.

Interesting framing for someone so reasonable and even handed Grin

RatRolyPoly · 20/05/2018 12:53

And believe me, if anyone can use it it will always be busy, just like all the other cubicles!

It would be like saying we all wait in the line for the ladies, but one of us is only waiting for ONE of the cubicles.

RatRolyPoly · 20/05/2018 12:54

Let's call it what it is Ereshkigal.

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 12:54

A woman after my own heart, Rat.

Pratchet · 20/05/2018 12:59

It's not a banishment cubicle, it's a mixed sex toilet. You wouldn't know if a Cubicle was free in the women's as you wouldn't be in there. You claim nobody minds using mixed sex toilets. So where's the shame? Where's the outing?

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 13:00

Whilst cubicle after cubicle becomes free in the ladies (why is this person taking so long??), and all your colleagues keep asking you why you don't just use the free cubicles, you know, because.... oh.

No, it should IMO be an accessible space so they may simply assume you have a hidden disability. If you pass better than 99% of trans people, and they don't already realise, that is.

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 13:01

An extra accessible and gender neutral space, I should say. In addition to a disabled toilet for either sex.

RatRolyPoly · 20/05/2018 13:02

No, it should IMO be an accessible space so they may simply assume you have a hidden disability.

So an extra disabled toilet (or the existing disabled?) but you can use it either if you have a disability or you're trans?

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 13:03

I made it clear in my second post that it was not the existing disabled loo.

RatRolyPoly · 20/05/2018 13:05

Yes, we x-post.

RatRolyPoly · 20/05/2018 13:05

*x-posted