To think he should pay on first date???

[namechangerforthis123]

Had a 'frank' discussion with a girlfriend at the w/e who was outraged that I thought a first date should pay for dinner.

I am v independent, decent career, probably generally feminist views on the whole.
He made it v clear he liked me.

But it was such a turn off when he started calculating how much it was each! 

It just was a passion killer; can't explain why!!

Would be interested to hear the MN view on this. Get your flame throwers ready! 

When DH and I started dating, he treated me to lots of meals (and I treated him in turn). One of the most attractive things about him was and is his generosity. I'd be worried if your date didn't at least offer to get the bill himself. If you have different attitudes to money at this stage then it's probably a no go relationship wise.

Trojanpony is bang on with the unwritten rules of dating money etiquette, I was on the scene a long time ago but nothing has changed!

Years ago when I was dating (25 years) I think it was more traditional for the guy to pay. These days it's split 50/50 I believe. However, I would say there are exceptions - if he invites you to somewhere really expensive and you say sorry, I can't afford that lets go to X place instead, but you end up going there then I'd expect him to pay. (For example if there is a big disparity in incomes).

You're crazy!

If you pay half and half, then there's no potential for ugly misunderstandings over payment for dinner equalling payment for sex. Because, let's be honest, that's been the deep logic of these so-called 'lovely traditional' arrangements: that the bloke is making an investment for his cock. Paying your share also sends a clear message that you're a strong, independent woman who can look after herself, and who is entitled to make her own decisions about who she sleeps with and when. Any bloke who has a problem with that on the grounds of gender needs to be weeded out anyway!

I agree with expat. You pay for what you have had to eat and drink. End of.

You do know even on the dating sites they tell the bloke to pay if he asks you out...
If it's a same sex date I still think the person asking should pay...
It sets the whole tone of a relationship... a woman insisting they pay half is more about the woman needing to exert control to show she is better than the man and slows a lack of Grace and wanting to wear the trousers...
My male friends also when I asked them say it would also make them in fact respect her less and often leads to no repeat date.
They do also say to offer to pay at the start of 2nd date is fine... as is thanks for a great meal the last time as it lets the payer feel good about the first meal.

YANBU

I think on a first date it's nice for the guy to pay, gentlemanly thing to do and a nice gesture. It doesn't mean we're traveling back to the 1950s but it is sweet! After that you can spilt etc, i don't think it's an archaic way of thinking I think it's just nice and shows that he wants to impress you. Depends how they were brought up, and on their backgrounds though. Also, they could be skint! Lol. So you never know. Don't be too quick to judge. My DP and I split everything half or one pays one time the other pays next time etc. but our first date he paid 😊

You should always go halvies. Unless they say "my treat" from the outset. You should then treat them on the next date in a place of your choosing.

I'd expect to split - but not calculate an exact total! Just a simple 50/50 split. This really winds me up, we go out for meals with DP's family (PiL, BiL, SiL + their respective families) And BiL wife and SiL always get the calculators out at the end of the meal, drives us and PiL crazy, just split 4 ways its not difficult! Us and PiL always end up paying more anyway because we cover the tip as they refuse to pay a penny more than they should! And this is why we will only go out with the PiL now because that's usually 'we'll get this one, you get the next one' So much easier!

@shinysinkredemption so if the man should be 'generous' and pay for you, does that make the woman tight fisted and mean?

Unless you are a prostitute, you shouldn't need a man to pay for your company.

This is a first date only thing..
Read some where this...from a mans point of view..
I ask her out I pay... 2nd date he hopes you offer to pay or share the bill.. to show your not using him.
...
First date ... She offers to pay half... nice but I so no... again I will let her pay half next time...
...
First date .. She offers I say no she gets money out anyway.... unless she is strident about it ok... means she now always has to pay half....
First date she pays... unless given good reason... She doesn't want a 2nd date.

trojanpony has explained the dating rules perfectly, in London anyway.

Perhaps it's different elsewhere, but I doubt it.

if I had to split on a first date I wouldn't see them again.
Probably means they are going to be mean in a relationship which is a turn of.

a woman insisting they pay half is more about the woman needing to exert control to show she is better than the man and slows a lack of Grace and wanting to wear the trousers...

A man taking charge of the bill is about needing - or expecting - to exert control, to show he is better than the woman, and making it clear he wears the trousers. 'Grace' isn't expected.

It's much nicer when there's grace and an assumption of real equality on both sides.

Every date I’ve been on where we’ve split the bill, it’s been a sign of things to come! For example:
One guy had a birthday the week after our first date and actually asked me to buy him a £40 bottle of whisky (Clearly I didn’t do it!)
Another guy insisted our second date be at Wetherspoons so we could get the value deal! (I didn’t go on that second date)
Another guy said I would have to travel to where he lives for further dates as it was too expensive for him to meet me in town (his fare would have been around £4)
And so on. You get the idea!
Sadly, in my experience, men who “insist” on bill splitting are either very poor or complete tight asses! That is why I am not impressed by a man who wants to go halves.

If a man was paying because he is a gentleman etc... I would be quite pissed off tbh.
If he was paying on the (usually tacit) agreement that I would then be paying next time (or that the pub or whatever), then I would be ok with it.
Because this is what I would do with friends (of whatever sex).

The issue of course is that it’s quite hard to know if the other party will keep up that agreement of paying the next time. Esp if the date is a first date through Tinder etc.... because you actually just do not know each other. And the risk of ghosting is high. So my way to play it safe would be to split in two (rough calculation).
If it was a first date with someone I actually knew before (eg part of a group I’m involved in), I would expect to take turns (both in proposing where to eat AND in paying)

a woman insisting they pay half is more about the woman needing to exert control to show she is better than the man and slows a lack of Grace and wanting to wear the trousers...

What’s wrong with a woman ‘wearing the trousers’?

I'd always be prepared to pay half but generally I think the person who did the inviting should pay, and then the couple should more or less take it in turns after that.

I agree that the biggest turn off is calculating exactly who had what etc. It's so uncomfortable and it does come across as tight. Maybe a bit different if one party had a small side salad and water and the other had a steak and wine, but how often is there that much of a disparity really?

If a man doesn't even expect to pay for you on a first date, just imagine what he'll be like some years down the line!

There are so many women on MN who don't have joint finances with their own husbands. Men who make no allowances for their wives' restricted earning potential once children come along.

This is where it all starts - read the signs on the early dates! As MN says, "He is telling you who he is - listen."

My DH is late 40s now and most of the men of that generation would have been embarrassed to let a woman pay for a date. That may seem chauvinist to the 50/50 advocates on here, but at least these men proceeded through life with a concept of financially providing for their families, rather than expecting their wives to struggle to juggle work and the mental load of the children / home - in other worlds "doing it all" which seems to be the lot of many women today. So that's the other end if the stick and no, life is not fair.

Aside from all this, there is nothing that's most of a turn-off than a stingy man who nit-picks about bills. What a nightmare.

@shinysinkredemption One of the most attractive things about him was and is his generosity.

What do you (and others who think as you) think the man thinks about you not wanting to pay? He wants to pay half and you think that's tight. What does not wanting to pay any of it make you? By your logic?

You will end up with an old fashioned relationship. You're sending the wrong signal from the outset.

That may seem chauvinist to the 50/50 advocates on here, but at least these men proceeded through life with a concept of financially providing for their families, rather than expecting their wives to struggle to juggle work and the mental load of the children / home

I do see where you're coming from, but the reality is things are a lot more equal now and it's much more common for women to earn as much as or more than their partners. It seems odd therefore to insist that it's still the man's responsibility to pay for dates.

What I agree is really important is that whichever party makes career sacrifices for the sake of kids / family isn't left feeling like they don't have financial independence or proper provision from the higher earning party, regardless of whether they're male or female.

Are things really more equal or has l8fe turned into a situation for many women whereby 'having it all' has turned into 'doing it all'.
I think pre dc most men and women are equal in terms of earning potential and careers, but once there are dc so many women end up trying to hold down ft jobs while doing more housework than their husbands and more childcare and more of the mental load when it comes to the logistics of family management.

It’s nice to offer but you should always expect to pay half.

It's not always about feminism but can also be about good manners.If someone,on a date of not,invited you for a meal out,then the inference is that they will pay.to get a calculator out is awful,even if the bill was to be split you'd just do exactly that.

I think on a first date it's nice for the guy to pay, gentlemanly thing to do and a nice gesture. It doesn't mean we're traveling back to the 1950s but it is sweet! After that you can spilt etc, i don't think it's an archaic way of thinking I think it's just nice and shows that he wants to impress you.

You don't think it's an archaic thing for a man to have to use money to impress you?? Or to show he's a 'gentleman'? A gentleman! How about him impressing you with his character, the way he behaves towards waiting staff and others, the things he talks about?

How about you impressing on him that you genuinely believe in equality instead of some incomprehensible set of rules?

I've been out of dating for years (and was insistent on paying my half way back then) but I liked to watch 'First Dates' early on. I was fascinated to see that all hetero couples seemed to abide by this ridiculous 'Man must pay' rule while gay male couples would simply split 50/50 with no hassle.

• "What is a slight feminist?"

A bloke who wants to go halves but then would recoil at a bit of leg hair.

Are there as many men going halves on childcare as there is going halves on dates? *

Haha. Spot on @HelenaDove.