To think he should pay on first date???

[namechangerforthis123]

Had a 'frank' discussion with a girlfriend at the w/e who was outraged that I thought a first date should pay for dinner.

I am v independent, decent career, probably generally feminist views on the whole.
He made it v clear he liked me.

But it was such a turn off when he started calculating how much it was each! 

It just was a passion killer; can't explain why!!

Would be interested to hear the MN view on this. Get your flame throwers ready! 

I need to move! ;)

Wow, the debate rages on! I do think MN is a parallel universe sometimes. I live in Central London. Most of the men I know (apart from DH) are married now in their 40s, but if they were dating, there is no way any of them would let a woman pay or think less of her for not forcing the issue. Even my son who is 14 has this concept - that if it's a date you pay and / or make some other kind of effort and that's how it's different to hanging out as friends. In real life, these things are not a big issue surely?

No one wants to date a stingy cunt

Man on date offers to go dutch = stingy cunt

Women on date offers nothing = ?????

Pa1oma

• In real life, these things are not a big issue surely?

Well it's easy to have that opinion if you are beneficiary of a social convention that dictates you get a free night out on a first date.

I remember in my 20s as a recent grad not being exactly well off (student loans, overdraft, crappy first job salary) being absolutely terrified in case my card was declined at a restaurant while on a date. I remember actually not asking someone I was keen on out because I could not afford to 'treat' them, despite that person probably earning double what I was on. Its all very well throwing accusations of being tight about but in many instances young men simply cant' afford it. I know some people on here will wade in say that they would be just as happy going for a walk or a picnic as a first date but the reality would be that if a bloke offered that as a first date option there would probably not be a second date.

The problem with the feminism discussion here is that a first date is an isolated 2-4 hour event, not an ongoing relationship. A first date is an audition, you pick up signals, body language, manners, and all sorts. I would myself offer to pay half but be surprised if he didn't insist on picking up the tab. Pay the fucking bill, Steve. I;d also be disappointed if he didn't hold the door, was nice to the staff, knew how to use a knife and fork and all sorts of other things.

You can still have an equal relationship where one of you pays for everything, and you do other things. It is NOT all about money. As I said above, if you bothered to RTFT, I've only paid for one meal out in a year. However, I have shopped and cooked several times. Not to pay him back, but because a) I cook really well and b) I'm a feeder, quite possibly I was a jewish nanna in a previous life, nothing makes me happier than seeing people eat my food.

When I moved, I on purpose left some jobs for him to do around the house (he lives elsewhere). Not because I can't do them myself, but because HE WANTS TO DO THINGS FOR ME, so I'm going to let him. It makes him happy. I realise his happiness is not my responsibility, but I like when he's happy. We're all happy.

I have no idea what he earns, and I think I earn more than him but he has less mortgage etc. so the end result is he has more cash to spend and he enjoys spending it, on me, his family, his friends.

pangalactic and collaborate sigh.
Time and again it has been stated that we OFFER to pay, a genuine offer, not a half hearted handbag reach to be clear: if a gentleman charmingly insists on paying AND we think we can treat on the second date (ie there will be a second date) then we might think, Lovely! He's clearly going to be a great provider and I can spend his money all day long when I've got a whacking great diamond on my finger, while a nanny and cleaners take care of all the boring SAHM stuff. Just kidding about the last sentence. But the lovely bit is true.
If we don't want to see him again, we insist on paying half. Though how you square this with the ladies who insist on paying half because they want a totally like for like relationship on all counts is a tricky one.

In real life, these things are not a big issue surely?

Surely it's as big an issue as any other issue of equality. These small things are where it starts - by saying that the Man must pay you setting up an unequal relationship. Very disappointed that someone would encourage a male teen to buy into that too. I've expressly told my ds the very opposite!

No one wants to date a stingy cunt

I wouldn't want to date someone who wanted to tot up who had what and pay exactly for what they had - that is stingy

Otherwise I don't see why going halves would be in any way stingy. I don't want to date a stingy cunt, but neither would I want to date a controlling arsehole who would take offence to a woman wanting to pay her own way on a first date

Then again, as so many posters have said they would be unimpressed if a bloke actually accepted their offer to go halves, seems like men can't win!

Pan, if you don't mind me saying this, you seem quite angry towards women and intent on reducing everything to a financial transaction.

Dating is not about money at all. All animals have courtship rituals and humans are no exception. So dating (if you are compatible) is a kind of foreplay, if you like. It's where a certain sexual dynamic evolves from. Many women like men who can show they can take the lead (maybe we are hard wired for this) and a whole range of what we associate as being masculine attributes which is why we bother with the opposite sex in the first place. And no, before you say it, this does not mean we want to be controlled for the rest of our lives or we think men are superior or anything like that - things are more nuanced than that and relative to the individual. It's something that's hard to put into words exactly, but I guess you're someone who either gets it or you don't. If you don't, then I guess you carry on bill-splitting in a "mates" way which is fine too, but many people would find this boring.

Just dropped in to cheer you on pangalactic. Quite shocked but enlightened by the double standards .

I'm a woman and I don't think he seems angry at all. Just seeking fairness.

I’d expect to pay half, but would be turned off if he was calculating exactly what we owed rather than just splitting the bill down the middle.

I’ve actually paid for dates a few times, simply because I didn’t want THEM to think all I wanted was their money!

Baubletrouble43 I'm also a woman and can't believe some of the sexist views in here. My DH paid on our first date, honestly I wasn't altogether comfortable with it because I am and have always been fiercely independent but I know it's kind of a male pride thing especially on the first date but I made sure we took it in turns after that

Pan - also, as to your lady update, I genuinely don't know any woman ever who expects that a date = money being thrown at them. This is not the point! It's far more about the effort and consideration involved, so yes, a walk or a picnic is absolutely fine. Why wouldn't it be?

Though how you square this with the ladies who insist on paying half because they want a totally like for like relationship on all counts is a tricky one.

Can only speak for myself, but for me a first date was very different to an ongoing relationship

On a first date there's no guarantee there will be a second date and the option to reciprocate

I would always insist on going halves for a first date because I didn't want to give the impression that I expected the man to pay, And I didn't want to feel obligated to have a second date just to return the favour

That's entirely different from a relationship where give and take takes many forms.

The only reasons I'd be happy to let the guy pay on a first date would be if the dinner itself was returning an existing favour, or if I'd travelled a long way to get there - so there would be an existing sense of reciprocity

last update!

Pan, if you don't mind me saying this, you seem quite angry towards women and intent on reducing everything to a financial transaction.

Not angry at all, I am not the one calling people stingy cunts, tight, mean, penny pinching etc. I am just curious as to how those people throwing out those insults can do so without a shred of irony given the position they hold. You may not see the finance side of a date as terribly important, shallow to discuss it even, but as I alluded to above for many young men the expectation to pick up the tab is actually quite a big deal, not because they are tight, but because they don't want to be financially embarrassed or seen to be stingy if they pick a low cost establishment.

Not angry at all, I am not the one calling people stingy cunts, tight, mean, penny pinching etc. I am just curious as to how those people throwing out those insults can do so without a shred of irony given the position they hold. You may not see the finance side of a date as terribly important, shallow to discuss it even, but as I alluded to above for many young men the expectation to pick up the tab is actually quite a big deal, not because they are tight, but because they don't want to be financially embarrassed or seen to be stingy if they pick a low cost establishment.

As a mother to a son I'd be very wary of a girl expecting him to pay for everything all the time and I'd be saying that to him as well. I also have a daughter and I'm always trying to get her to rely on and look after herself financially. That's what I want for both my kids really and for neither to be taken advantage of.

bananafish81 On a first date there's no guarantee there will be a second date and the option to reciprocate

At the end of a first date I'd have a fair idea about whether I want to see this person again. If it's a no, I'd insist on paying my share, otherwise I'd feel I was taking advantage. If yes, I'd say "As long as I can get it next time" - letting him know that I want there to be a next time, and that I don't see him as a walking cashpoint.

If either party comes away feeling less than happy with whatever happened when the bill arrived, it's not a good sign for the future of the relationship and both parties should move on.

Equality has gone too far! Women being expected to pay for their own food! What next, men being expected to clean their own fridges?! Women expected to go to the petrol station for themselves? Its political correctness gone mad!

Its very sweet to hear stories of how people got together with their partners, particularly those who have been together a long time, I liked the story about the man who spent a third of his wage on his date.

However, I am not dating because I want a husband. I don't even want a live in partner. I just want to date and enjoy the company of men, and occasionally take one of them home with me. So I'll carry on splitting bills, since I'm not looking for someone to take care of me. I don't really care who pays.

Quite alarmed that one poster said she expects her son to pay on dates because ‘that’s what makes it different from hanging out with mates”. Trust me - it’s not!

And to be crystal clear, I would offer to go halves either way.

Dating is not about money at all

@Pa1oma could you be more duplicitous??

If it isn’t about money, then get your wallet out. Oh no wait - it IS about money for you because all you wanted was to be a kept women. Lovely.

Yes, that is very strange. Dating isn’t about money at all, so why does it matter who pays? I like paying for dates, if I like someone it’s nice to treat them, it makes me feel good. If I don’t like them, I’ll split it.

Pan yes I can understand what you're saying and I'm sorry you had those experiences but, please can I assure you that the vast majority of women are not in it for a free dinner. It's the substance of a man, not his wallet! When DH and I were dating, he used to come across London when I was on a late shift and wait for me to finish work to walk me home and maybe we'd get s coffee on the way or something. That kind of effort means far more than any expensive dinner he could have taken me on. That's all I'm trying to say.

Furano you are spectacularly missing the point.