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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To want to shake my “unschooling” “friend”

226 replies

MrsPreston11 · 10/05/2018 13:32

She seems to think that because my kids are in awful, awful (ofsted outstanding and they’re both very happy) mainstream school they miss out on SO much.

And takes any chance she can to make sure I know how very very happy she is having all these “precious adventures” every day.

Most days they just watch TV/iPad and then once a month go to a museum or theme park.

Her oldest (5) can’t read or write yet, can’t play nice with other kids, can’t sit still for 2 seconds.

Guess what. Mine go to museums and theme parks and beaches too. I’m not bloody neglecting them.

Urgh. Sorry. Rant over.

OP posts:
perfectstorm · 11/05/2018 22:00

Agree completely, math.

I've met some like that. It's like a religion.

gillybeanz · 11/05/2018 22:15

I don't think that H.ed children need miss out on socialising, or only mix with other H.ed families.
Mine had lots of friends who attended school and she played with them when they'd finished, or at weekend, the same as schooled kids do.

It worked well for us and sometimes unschooling is the right approach for a particular child.
We adopted both approaches, semi structured and autonomous.
It was the autonomous approach that worked best for dd, and although she was about a year behind when she went back into school, she soon caught up.
It's what's important to the child that needs to be encouraged, if they don't want to do History or Geography, why bother. Especially if at 8 they know what they want in life.
All kids are different and one approach doesn't work for them all. Between the ages of 8-11, school held no appeal for my dd, she had better ideas.

Barbara1956 · 12/05/2018 00:43

My children are now adults , were in school in the mid 90's onwards..I had real problems with my son's infant school , he is an August baby so had to start when he was newly 4, the class he went into was vertically streamed so had 5, 6 and 7 year olds in it...it was dreadful ; my son who has always been small, was bullied every day and became very anxious. He endured physical attacks too. As I was the breadwinner I couldn't leave work to home ed. So I managed to get him and his younger sister into a Cof E local school where the caring yet disciplined routine helped them flourish. He went to Oxford, his sister is soon to finish a PhD course in the USA.so they have both done very well...but I wish that I could have spared them their first damaging experiences.
A neighbour is worrying about educating her young boys...some of the current curriculum being pushed in junior schools is wacky .Homeschooling is a difficult choice demanding a hell of a lot of hard work by the parents but having kids means that you want to do the best for them and for the majority that means schools and a supportive home life.

RumerGodden · 12/05/2018 01:33

There must be a boat load of parents out there with educational degrees up their sleeve...

I am tertiary educated, and consider myself informed about my kids' education - i read the syllabus each year etc.

But in no way would I consider myself qualified to home educate . I know a few HEs and most are pretty batty. The best are two incredibly intelligent parents, highly qualified in academia, who between them have enough subject matter knowledge to teach their kids all the way through high school level.

The kids have heaps of experiences as well, and are v bright, but arevstill lacking in understanding basic social norms for kids their age, and it is becoming more pronounced as they hit adolescence.

I just can't get my head around all these people who feel confident to teach maths/science/literature/grammar etc as well as a basic understanding of educating skills and child psychology!

Do you have to sit a diploma in education before you are allowed to HE? How many people here could realistically sit down and explain high school mathematical or physics concepts and equations to their kids? Or speak a language fluently enough to teach it?

Possibly my brain has just deteriorated with age and damage from my mainstream education.

I'm not trying to be goady, just trying to understand how people get qualified to do this...I have several degrees under my belt, ESL teaching experience, accounting and finance career behind me and still don' t feel I could confidently deliver a high school syllabus load of work to my kids effectively - especially since most high school teachers specialize in subjects, so i wouldn't expect a high school maths teacher to take on the english class etc.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 12/05/2018 05:01

RumerGodden
There are actually a lot of ex teachers in our home ed community.
Teaching higher level subjects is less about personally being an expert in all things and more about facilitating access to experts through high quality resources.

mathanxiety · 12/05/2018 05:12

The problem with the approach being that you may not necessarily have enough knowledge in any particular topic to distinguish among experts or to separate out the high quality resources from the third rate.

CosyLulu · 12/05/2018 05:15

I never considered home ed for dd - partly because I work and partly because I wanted her to experience school, get a good education and be ‘part of the real world’ if that makes sense? Not saying home ed isn’t the real world but I thought the bits of school that are quite tough might make you a stronger person for life.

Dd is 15 now and, at this crucial GCSE moment in education has stopped going to school. The changes made by Gove have put so much pressure on secondary school kids that, according to dd’s school counsellor, “they are dropping like flies.” Dd just couldn’t do it anymore.

I am currently reluctantly ‘unschooling’ her - having to watch her sleep a lot, read a bit, do tons of art, spend hours on the phone and computer. It drives my slightly potty but the state she was in - starvation and self-harming was dreadful.

We’re hoping to get her into a pupil referral unit - v small school with just 30 kids, covering maths, English and art. Trying to salvage some GCSEs. But taking it as it comes.

If I look back I think primary school was wonderful - dd loved it and I personally could never have taught her all she learned there. But I would say that for a lot of kids secondary school fucks them up and I wish the education system could change what they are doing given the amount of anxiety and stress our teenagers are suffering from.

RumerGodden · 12/05/2018 05:38

Thanks Vitriol,

That's what i wondered...certainly not the norm here in OZ from what I have seen. That's interesting about high school level but still not sure how resources etc can replace 5 hours a week with, say, a maths teacher who can teach both conceptually and then teach the equations...

I guess I also find it difficult to be dispassionate about my kids and would worry that I wouldn't be able to accurately gauge where they are at or whether they were doing oK!

ALittleBitofVitriol · 12/05/2018 05:39

mathanxiety
Yes that's always a risk. Generally you'd start with companies that have a good reputation, ask advice from professionals working in the discipline, look at what schools/unis are using etc.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 12/05/2018 06:06

RumerGodden
I am in oz too. Ex teachers are actually over represented in home ed circles in my experience.

It really depends on the subject and the kid honestly. I'm comfortable with high school maths & english myself but many resources today come with online help components. There's also online classes, in person tutors, math camps and competitions, tests (naplan, ICAS etc). Certainly both conceptual and specific equations are supported in any good resource. We have built a good community and you might be surprised at the support and activities available.

A positive of the home ed model is that I can give time as needed to master a topic, a teacher must keep the whole class in mind. Home ed can be quite a different mindset, so while we are legally required to keep track of standards and make sure we're meeting them (state standards are available online for each subject/grade), for me, philosophically, whether they are doing ok is more to do with their personal agency in mastering a concept and enriching their minds.

There are definitely pros and cons, like anything, but home ed can be a really great choice.

mathanxiety · 12/05/2018 07:28

ALittleBitofVitriol
A lot of people unfortunately don't know how much they don't know, and it wouldn't cross their minds that there is more to it than they personally are familiar with.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 12/05/2018 08:56

True mathanxiety, many professionals I've asked advice from had no idea there were such excellent resources available (scientists, mathematicians, year 12 english teachers...) Wink
But yes, there are pros and cons to everything, and no one has a gap free education. Smile

Curious2468 · 12/05/2018 10:56

We home Ed and I admit I avoid people who are insistent on sticking themselves in a box with regards to their approach. We have spells of being ‘schooly’ ‘semi structured’ and ‘autonomous/unschooling’ depending on what else is going on and where the kids are mentally with regards to learning. I think the best approach to home ed is being willing to follow what your children need rather than a preconceived idea in your head of how you want to do things. For us that means currently my older child is very autonomous because she is naturally academic and is like a sponge with all the books she reads but my youngest needs more support so we spend more time actively working on his reading and writing (we never needed this with my daughter because she taught herself to read at 3).

Your ‘friend’ is bang out of order sending you these links etc. I find the people who tend to push these things tend to be the ones who doubt their decisions the most and need outside validation that their ideas are right.

youarenotkiddingme · 12/05/2018 11:09

I'm totally for whatever education fits the educated person.

HE was possibly something I was going to have to take on with my ds who has ASD. But I don't think it would have suited him as he wanted the social contact of school within the routine of school. The HE groups I looked into provided social opportunities but weren't as routine driven as he needs.

Luckily a new school provided what he needed at the time and continues to work for him for now.

Yanbu to be annoyed with her being rude about your choices.

MoronsandNeurons · 12/05/2018 12:59

OP it sounds like your friend feels a bit insecure about it so is trying to reaffirm her choices in front of you. Irritating I know but at least you can see it for what it is. It’s the whole ‘thou protest too much’ thing.

I am divided to be honest. I think all kids at some point ask their parents to be home schooled or at least drop a hint about it. We weren’t but my sister was. At first I was horrified - my only experience of home ed children were ‘slightly unusual’ but she had already done primary and part of secondary. Humble pie to me - she did her first GCSE a year early and got an A. This was particularly impressive as she was never academic or particularly skilled. As you can schedule your own lessons you can focus on one exam at a time if you like.

However - you do have to pay for exams. And you have to put the work in. She has group lessons remotely for maths, regularly goes on school trips, has specific scheduled times for lessons and online learning programs.

I cannot stand it when parents use it as an excuse - we knew a family who would basically leave their kids to it all day. The parents couldn’t spell, their kids ‘finished’ school unable to spell, no exams, and a bitter attitude. There needs to be more government regulation to stop people like that who are overly relaxed or can’t be bothered and so disadvantage their children.

I also think for little ones the social interaction is so so important. These are social skills that will shape their life. Obviously this is easier to get at school and you have to be proactive to get if home educating.

So a balance is in order.

Regarding special needs - that can be hard. My relative has autism & it was so difficult for him at mainstream school. At a special school he did excellently. But it’s so hard to get into one and so I can understand the appeal to parents for special needs kids to home ed.

Tringley · 12/05/2018 13:39

I'm not trying to be goady, just trying to understand how people get qualified to do this...I have several degrees under my belt, ESL teaching experience, accounting and finance career behind me and still don' t feel I could confidently deliver a high school syllabus load of work to my kids effectively - especially since most high school teachers specialize in subjects, so i wouldn't expect a high school maths teacher to take on the english class etc.

I really struggle to understand this argument. You went to school and learned that same curriculum. Yet you don't think that you understand what you learned well enough to pass that knowledge on to your children? Passing our knowledge onto our children is one of our basic evolutionary functions. If you feel you can't do that with the same syllabus you spent years learning, then that speaks very badly for the syllabus and method of learning that so many of us spent so many years on.

Tbh, I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to replicate a curriculum. A child's brain doesn't really work in that kind of linear fashion. My 5yo reads at a year 3-4 level but in terms of content, he is as happy reading an In The Night Garden book as he is with The Secret Seven. In terms of maths, he doesn't differentiate between his ability to add/subtract/multiply simple numbers and his enjoyment of measuring angles, calculating the area of an object, his base understanding of Pi or working out how many years have passed since the liberation of Paris or the sinking of the Titanic. In terms of science, he will spend an easy two hours just finding and watching bugs in the garden or doing chemistry experiments as complicated as using gallium and aluminium to release the hydrogen from water in the hopes of collecting it in a balloon so he can compare it to helium in terms of usefulness in floating and flammability. He's also been working on creating static electricity with wet rope with an eventual hope to combine the experiments in a miniature recreation of the Hindenberg disaster. (Though, for obvious reasons, it will probably be a while before we attempt that one.)

His interest in biology has mainly focussed on dinosaur evolution, but he can go through his toy dinosaurs and reptiles, point out many of the physical anachronisms present on so many toys like pteranodon toys usually having long tails like a pterodactyls group reptile. Group them depending on which of the three periods of the mesozoic era they lived in and then use other toys, volcanos, trees, rocks, sand, etc to create the landscape of each era. Then the dinosaur's will time travel to each other's periods (like on Dinosaur Train) or Lex Luthor will time travel back to make the dinosaurs mine Kryptonite. As well as that he's recently started getting very interested in what would be the field of astrobiology, so we investigate newly found planets in their Goldilocks zones and work out what kind life could potentially be present on them. (Tardigrades, it's always tardigrades.)

He has a growing interest in history and politics. Largely focussed on the wars of the early 20th century and the current wars and refugee crises. He's still very little so while he understands that wars are very bad things, I keep the focus on positive events like the 1914 Christmas truce, the Danish evacuation of it's Jewish population and the resettlement of Syrian families and children in Europe. He is technologically fairly adept, and uses early engineering kits to create working circuits, has plans to put together his own computer (just a raspberry pi kit), knows how to find the problem on a damaged motherboard and work out how to fix it (though he's obviously only allowed to watch from a safe distance while I solder) and has a surprisingly comprehensive knowledge of how a combustion engine works.

In any given week the kind of 'work' he does will range from what he might be doing in school with his peers to post-graduate level science and every level in between. He doesn't differentiate between it, any or all of it, it's just what caught his interest in that moment. He also doesn't differentiate between subjects as a game of going through the periodic table to find all the elements with no consecutive vowels (inspired by a question on Pointless) is both chemistry and grammar and can lead us in either direction as follow up work. And lastly none of it is work to him, it's all just a spontaneous follow-up of whatever questions he asks. Most of his time is spent in totally free play, cycling, hanging out in the woods, camping and travelling, etc. He's an extremely physically active child and while he can stay still for hours if he's deeply absorbed, he mostly needs to learn through immersive doing and lots and lot of movement.

School wouldn't suit him for one moment. He'd be bored and frustrated and deeply unsatisfied with a way of learning that just skims the surface of a subject compared to how his mind yearns to know and do. As for me, I don't find it hard work at all. Tbh, I find it an utter privilege and an amazing opportunity to learn along with him. So much of what we do as "schooling," starts with him sharing his knowledge of something I've never even heard of with me (gallium) and then we both dive deeper with it. It is actually a stunningly fantastic way to live and I wake up every morning wondering what great new stuff I'll learn today. And yet, I know that a lot of people look at me as the weirdo mother who is damaging my kid. That's life when you take such an unusual step outside of the norm and as much as I believe that my son is living a life much more suited to him, at times that kind of criticism gets into your head and makes you doubt what you are doing. It's a normal human reaction to feel defensive when judged like that and focussing on all reasons why this is the superior choice for your family can be a necessary coping strategy.

I do worry about socialisation, especially with an only child, so work extremely hard to ensure he has lots of interaction with his peers. He has plenty of interaction with homeschooled kids every week, he's now old enough to join a number of local sports teams so he has ongoing community interaction with the schooled kids who live near us and we're in a camping club that we go away with on a lot of summer weekends, so he has friendships with the same group of kids from all around the surrounding counties. The camping club is especially fantastic as on an enclosed campsite the kids get to 'play out' and go off and have their own adult-free adventures from a young age, in the way that kids rarely get these days but were the norm for my generation. But I know that there will be times in the future that he is treated like the 'weirdo homeschooled kid' and that's an awful feeling.

gillybeanz · 12/05/2018 13:39

I hold a PgCE, but it had no relevance to facilitating learning (H.ed is not teaching) and certainly not classroom based.
I had no need for classroom management, planning, parent's evenings, differentiation, or anything else a teacher may need in the classroom.
These threads always seem to show the ignorance of some people who have never really considered H.ed. Maybe, more should be published to help parents make informed choices.
School doesn't suit all children, or individual children at a particular time in their life.

MrsPreston11 · 12/05/2018 15:47

@mathanxiety

Some of this group are 150% committed to the attachment parenting model and many claim that their children have never left their side.

This exactly describes my friend. A message a while back was about how there had been conflict between the kids and she was SO SO glad she was there (as always) to help them talk their feelings. That would never happen in a classroom with 29 other kids. There would be no one on one time.

I did bits and mention my DDs get plenty of one on one time with both me, DH and their teachers/TAs at school but of course, not the same. I’ve since stopped biting or even letting messages show as read.

@Curious2468

Your HE approach sounds perfect. And sounds like your kids have it the best way. A part of me does sort of wish my girls could have more time with me. But I’d do them a disservice trying to teach them and they so adore their school.

5 days a week seems a lot sometimes but the benefits they get from it are far more than if they were home with me all week. We have a great time in school holidays but all of us are excited when it’s back to school time!

And definitely, I think so much of her bragging is just her trying to convince herself. I also think the constant “my husband is so amazing, I love him so much” is the same. She says it so much. Hmm

OP posts:
Highhorse1981 · 12/05/2018 16:19

What does 150% look like?!

drspouse · 12/05/2018 18:54

You went to school and learned that same curriculum. Yet you don't think that you understand what you learned well enough to pass that knowledge on to your children?
The usual rule is you need to be at least one level ahead.
So GCSE to teach primary/early secondary, A level to teach GCSE and degree level to teach A level.
Yes I knew my O levels at the time but I didn't learn all of the topics well enough to cover them now, go into depth, know what's new in the field and teach all the skills to GCSE level.
I could cover the knowledge happily at primary level but wouldn't for DS.

It's also hard to find an online curriculum that's challenging enough for a bright child (my relatives looked into this and the only options were really for those who were resitting to get a minimum 5 subjects)

donquixotedelamancha · 12/05/2018 19:33

I think structured homeschooling can be brilliant, but let's not kid ourselves---some people are just plain irresponsible.

This. Unfortunately.

I've known about 5 homeschoolers. One was fab- I'm not sure it was the right choice but it was certainly for valid reasons and she worked hard to provide a good education.

The others were all just neglectful parenting- to avoid challenges from school about pre-existing neglect, to avoid disciplining a child who hurt others or because it was easier to give in to the child and then blame the school. Each time little or no education took place.

There are some really sad situations hiding behind a mask of 'home schooling' and unfortunately in my experience LAs have no resources to really address the problem.

Shedmicehugh1 · 12/05/2018 20:33

I’m just Confused as to why you would need to be a teacher or equivalent to home ed?

Why would anyone want to home ed, ‘unschool’ etc if all you are going to do is ‘teach’ like a teacher?! And follow the exact curriculum?

mathanxiety · 12/05/2018 20:39

It looks like hyperbole, Highhorse.

Tringley - would any of that be possible if you had several more children? Or would you feel you were pulled in several different directions all day every day? How would it work if you had to spend your days in paid employment?
I get the feeling that this sort of intense focus of which one child is the beneficiary is only possible for people enjoying a relatively privileged position.

I really struggle to understand this argument. You went to school and learned that same curriculum. Yet you don't think that you understand what you learned well enough to pass that knowledge on to your children? Passing our knowledge onto our children is one of our basic evolutionary functions. If you feel you can't do that with the same syllabus you spent years learning, then that speaks very badly for the syllabus and method of learning that so many of us spent so many years on.

There is plenty of knowledge that I personally passed on - cooking, cleaning, family lore, manners, my enthusiasm for certain areas - art, music, history. Then there are personal qualities that I hope I passed on - curiosity and finishing what you started being the main ones in the academic area.

The advantage of having qualified teachers is that their knowledge is up to date. This is especially important in an area like biology, where a curriculum would have to be updated every couple of years - most of what I learned in bio, even down to the level of the cell, is now obsolete. Even in an area like history, you would need to keep abreast of current arguments, historiography, approaches to old topics in light of recent developments and new interdisciplinary studies. There is a constant resifting of information as new light is shed and new philosophical angles are explored. I would be fine with the basics of science, historical facts, Irish and French grammar and conversation, and guiding a child through a course of English lit and grammar. I would not be doing a child justice once he or she got beyond the basics because relavant and all as my education was, it's been a while since I was in school.

I have observed from my own learning experience that some foundation is necessary in every area, so I would consider it important to teach some basics in a methodical way. I would also expect a child to learn the way I do - fairly quickly - and I would provide a big picture whether the child really needed it or not, because I do. This is knowledge of my own experience of learning.

Whether this is ok in all instances to pass on is up for debate - is it ok for a parent who learns well from books to sit a child down in front of books all day when actually that child learns best orally or through hands on activities? I have a DS whose grades in university far outstripped his school grades because he was able to tape lectures and classes and absorb most of the material in his STEM degree from spoken word. I would have been barking up the wrong tree completely with him. I am a written word person.

What about a child with a gift that a parent does not value? Parents have blind spots, and unfortunately when a child is home schooled the potential for a square peg to be pushed into the round hole of the parent's choice increases. The result is that girls who would make excellent welders become mediocre actresses, or children with a talent for art become barristers. There is the old Monty Python poet/miner skit... This happens in school too, of course. But at least in school (a lot of the time) a child has a chance to try out areas of interest and teachers can spot an aptitude that a parent might not consider, and encourage when a parent might pooh-pooh a child's enthusiasm. There are teachers out there who see in an individual child's artwork seeds of greatness that the parents do not see. I know one girl who returned from choir tryouts in her school beaming because the choir teacher had told her she had 'a beautiful and unusual soprano voice' - this voice had not been appreciated at home at all.

What about a family that is not integrated into the society in which it lives? Is an education at home in which the children learn the ways and important educational basics of another society and culture appropriate in all cases? Is home ed only really for people who are fully integrated and teaching the right (aka Western) things in the correct (aka Western) way?

The compromise in my family has been that I delegate to school and provide well informed backup and gap filling at home.

Tringley · 12/05/2018 20:43

Yes I knew my O levels at the time but I didn't learn all of the topics well enough to cover them now, go into depth, know what's new in the field and teach all the skills to GCSE level.

That's kind of my point though. Almost everything I learned in school was some form of skim learning of a curriculum that barely scratched the surface of a subject just so I could pass an exam in it. Then I left school and forgot nearly all of it because it meant nothing more to me than a means to an end. The fact that so few parents feel even remotely confidant to pass on to their children, the information they spent years studying just shows how ineffectual a form of learning it is. If a child has an opportunity to learn more in a more indepth, more effective, more fun way with a lot more free time for play, sports, socialisation and just vegging out. Then that's an obvious choice. Not every child can have the opportunity and I understand what an absolute and utter privilege it is for both of us to be able to live this way. (Though of course it has required a lot of sacrifice.) But the positives for both of us are legion and the only real negative is dealing with societal disapproval and suspicion. (Which is actually really shit and I hate how it makes me feel.)

SickofThomasTheTank · 12/05/2018 21:27

Christ..... My 3yr old has been counting to ten since she was 10 months. Which I realise is early and is likely down to 'Charlie and the Numbers.' She now can count to 16 and backwards, can read a little and knows the alphabet. However she struggles to understand things that are said to her..... Anyway, a 7yr old not being able to count to 10?!?! Shock Surely that is not average????

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