To want to shake my “unschooling” “friend”

[MrsPreston11]

She seems to think that because my kids are in awful, awful (ofsted outstanding and they’re both very happy) mainstream school they miss out on SO much.

And takes any chance she can to make sure I know how very very happy she is having all these “precious adventures” every day.

Most days they just watch TV/iPad and then once a month go to a museum or theme park.

Her oldest (5) can’t read or write yet, can’t play nice with other kids, can’t sit still for 2 seconds.

Guess what. Mine go to museums and theme parks and beaches too. I’m not bloody neglecting them.

Urgh. Sorry. Rant over.

I get irritated actually by some Home Schoolers who seem to assume that those who send their kids to school never take their kids to museums, libraries, do home projects, learn an instrument outside of school, etc etc. A decent parent makes sure their kids learn outside of school as well.

I do support Home Education. But I strongly dislike the messages that anyone can home educate. Seeing some attempts, that is simply not true.

Completely agree with all of that, and I home educate.

"I have a friend like this. Her 7yo is illiterate, can’t read or write or count to ten (or 5 tbh)"

Holy Batman, my 2 year old can count to 10. That's not a humblebrag, I expect most 2 year olds can count to 10. Hate to suggest but you might want to consider a casual report so someone can make her see sense and give her some support in teaching them, I'd dread to think of what they'll be like at 15,16.

Oh, and parents who militantly believe you have to parent JUST LIKE THEM or you are doing it WRONG are a PITA, whatever their views. I think it's incredibly dense, actually, to believe there's some secret to human development, and that it must be done just that way, or it's a disaster. Looking around me, I'm pretty sure the margin for error is wide.

Apologies if this has already been answered but what is the difference between 'unschooling' and 'home schooling'?

It has been answered a few times, but home education/schooling is the generic term for education other than at school.

Unschooling is an approach to home education, which is the opposite of the traditional school method. So no forced, formal learning. Tends to be child led, and done well involves parents facilitating, putting information out in their path etc.

I'm all for homeschooling if you can do it. Id rather home educate as I don't agree with the current curriculum but its not feasible atm. Both my children go to school my 5 year old who is very bright and comes on in leaps and bounds but something not right. My eldest who's 6 has SEN and since going to school his progress dropped and they told me themselves he wasn't progressing. I now treat school as a creche and he has 2 hours a night of me teaching him reading writing, maths etc. But ideally it would be more better home educate him at this stage if it was feasable. ( not just me saying that his teacher has stated that last parents evening)

I have a friend who works full time and 'homeschools'
Basically the daughter watches telly and plays in the ipad
Should not be allowed in my view

Unschooling is a form of education some home educating parents use.

Home education is a very broad church. Some parents literally replicate school for their kids, hours, sitting at a table, texts, the lot. Others work on the basis that education should be totally led by the child, so they follow their interests, because in fairness most kids if offered a lot of interesting info on a subject they have chosen and have interest in to start with will engage with it. Done right, that's unschooling, and it can work quite exceptionally well. I know teachers who have stopped work to home ed their kids who do that, and their kids are learning so impressively they are doing reports ("topic" in school) on areas of their choice to roughly GCSE level in primary age. Sadly some parents claim they are doing this when they don't give them the stimulation necessary to fire any interest so don't teach them a thing.

I'm sort of in the middle. My son has a qualified primary teacher and SENDCO who teaches 3 hours a week one to one formal maths and English. Once a month, he joins a group of 10 to 14 year olds with a qualified science teacher offering them a full day's hands on experiential teaching in a scientific area - so digestion one day, acids and alkalis another, that sort of thing. He does Forest School one afternoon a week, and we do random trips to museums etc (phone ahead as he has sensory problems, so we can pick a day with few groups booked in). He also has a weekly chess lesson which he adores. Otherwise, he reads voraciously - think a novel a day - and we provide a range of educational books and DVDS (he loves all the Brian Cox science films) and he has to watch an educational film a day. He grumbles over that beforehand but is absorbed when it's on.

Some of his maths work is apparently Level (not year) 6. He's ahead of expected levels on most maths and literacy, though there are gaps in English where he struggles with inferred meaning and emotions. Those areas were missed when he was in school because he was ahead of expected levels so nobody was looking. His science, I have no clue, but he can explain the solar system, and the periodic table, with competence. He read Wonder last week, and a Rick Riordan, and The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime, and Who Let The Gods Out? He's 9. He's doing fine. And most importantly, he's a really, really happy child, as he was a preschooler. In school, he ended up diagnosed with clinical levels of anxiety so severe they wanted to medicate.

Home ed can work, but I have to say, it's expensive, and a PITA in terms of effort. I'd much prefer school. And I do worry about the social side, because home edders tend to be quirky. I'm quirky myself, so that's not a criticism, but it does limit social exposure, because by definition you tend to meet people who are alternative, free range children types, and not the conventional. And ideally I would like my kids to meet a really wide range of people and ideas.

I'm also not sure I can home ed to the standard my son needs in secondary. I don't believe the online schools are ideal there either. So I am looking into private provision at secondary, and how feasible bank robbery is as a career choice to fund it.

She sounds very smug and you sound as if you don't like her any more. Time to call it a day on the friendship? Either that or agree to not discuss education.

Sorry, should read: I'd much prefer school from a selfish perspective, but home ed is better for my son.

This was so much better than my attempt: Unschooling is an approach to home education, which is the opposite of the traditional school method. So no forced, formal learning. Tends to be child led, and done well involves parents facilitating, putting information out in their path etc.

'putting information in their path'
But how can that work? Chemistry lessons with practicals-do people have labs in their houses and art studios/sports facilities?
It is extremely difficult to give children a rounded education at home and that's without going into the social skills subject.
Unschooling is a fad imho.

A lot of people have read 'unschooling' and understood this to mean ' home- schooling'.

They are not the same at all.

I don't know many primary aged children doing chemistry practicals. Mine does, actually, because a home ed group allows older primary kids to participate, but he wouldn't be able to in school at his age.

I don't unschool because it wouldn't suit my personality - I'd stress over it too much - but the bits of unschooling we do do have, honestly, worked really well. My son has an obsession with the periodic table now, and that was completely led by him. I can't even remember how he found out it existed as a concept tbh as I'm not a scientifically minded person. We bought him a Top Trumps set with the elements and properties, and there are a ton of books on it that are child friendly - one is a coffee table book, of all things, with the most beautiful photos, and grouped facts for every element. For a 9 year old, that's ideal.

A good teacher will try to teach to an interest the kids share - that's why they theme learning in a term to eg Harry Potter, Dr Who, the World Cup etc. If you only have one child to worry about then you can allow them to follow an interest and then sort of scaffold and supply information and materials so they can run with it. My son, for example, loves maths. Maths is his happy place. So we approach geography via maths, which was an idea I got from these books. He's happy because it's his beloved maths, and the geography is incidental. Another home edder suggested Risk today, as he adores board games. That will fire off interests which we can then follow, and I am chuffed to bits with the suggestion. The thing I do like a lot about unschooling is that it fires a love of learning, and that's important.

As I said, we don't unschool. He has formal lessons that follow the national curriculum, with a qualified teacher. But as I said before, I don't think anyone can claim only one method is right, and I know people who unschool to a high standard. Including teachers.

My approach to home ed is pick and mix. I use a lot of approaches. I think really, really good schools do the same, but they don't have the luxury of tailoring it to one child.

I do worry about the social side though. Having said that, plenty of kids in schools are isolated, bullied, and friendless, and aren't getting any sort of socialisation that does them favours. At least in home ed they would have friends, and wouldn't have their self esteem smashed to pieces.

The problem in discussion on home ed and school is firstly that it's usually framed as adversarial, with each posed as a terrible option by someone on the other side, and the evidence provided to support that is always the optimal or worst case scenario. I imagine most cases lie somewhere in the middle.

Personally, I think it's a real shame so few schools are open to flexi. It would seem to offer a really good compromise.

Home schooling is different to unschooling. Unschooling is considered quite radical, homeschooling is not at all uncommon.

But I don't think any of this is about schooling, this is about your friend being bloody rude. You need to tell her to stop, that you need to respect each other's decisions. Otherwise it's no friendship at all.

I disagree with all the unschooling and homeschooling bashing; many parents do a very fine job and are respectful of other schooling choices.

Mainstream school is suitable for rather a narrow group of children so it is quite reasonable that parents whose children are not catered to seek alternatives.

I know someone who homeschooled her 2 children. The basis for this was the eldest was being ‘bullied’ although there was no evidence of this from peers/School. So she took both out of school.
It’s worked well for the eldest who is now at sixth form.
It’s been a disaster for the younger one but she won’t admit it. He is hugely unmotivated and just wants to spend all day on gaming or in bed (like many teenagers) and rarely will go out. He does not want to do any work.
She goes on about he has a ‘full social life’ but everything he goes to with kids his own age she has arranged, never independently made his own friends. In fact his experience with local kids hasn’t been good at all even from a young age so has no ‘friends’ just activities he goes to.
He was doing well in school before she took him out also.

@mousefunky - that was very funny!

JamieVardys the twigs and pebbley shit thread is in Classics. It is truly hilarious.

Unschool isn't our bag, and most people I come across aren't hardcore one way or another.

To me it isn't about home education. It's about your friend being a smug, sanctimonious so and so.

Regardless of anyone's personal views on Home Education, the type of people who share endless posts about how their lifestyle choices are so much more enlightened than others are annoying and rude.

Eggz The boy you mentioned with no friends sounds a little bit like my son a few years ago. He has autism and ADHD and had no support while in school, so I took him out (very reluctantly) at age 10 to home educate. Like the boy you mentioned, his social interaction was mainly with families I knew and with activity groups, but that was because he hadn't the skills to manage a social life on his own and would have had none whatsoever if I hadn't arranged these things. Home ed allowed him to participate at his own pace and gradually develop those skills, with a safety net of pulling out if things got too much for him. He's now 19, studying A levels at college, and he can handle any social situation with ease. He wouldn't have learned the necessary skills if he'd stayed in school where 'socialisation' was immersive and frankly harmful for someone with his disabilities.

I'm not suggesting the boy you're talking about has the same issues, just that there's a similarity and there may be other reasons that he doesn't socialise independently that you might not be aware of.

My two at outstanding state school

They both LOVE it.

Forest school every Tueaday
4 trips a term
Awesome teachers
Wonderful school playing fields
Very local school (because so popular you have to live on doorstep to get in), so lots of trips to park or spontaneous “come back to ours for a coffee and the children can play for an hour”

And I am blown away with what they learn and how enthused they are! My 5 year old explaining what a rhetorical question is and my 8 year barely able to contain himself as he tells me the forest school teacher made fire with a battery and some wool.

When the state school system works in this country it is bloody bloody amazing

I'd distance myself if that's the main topic that comes up. She sounds incredibly lonely though and like she's trying to justify her choices more than anything, I'm assuming she has no friends who share her 'passion'? She's definitely recruiting.

I looked at home educating my two before they started school and I believe when done well it can be a fantastic thing and open so many doors, but there's fanatics on both sides of that fence.

For my two, they love school and are just thriving. I wouldn't hesitate to remove them otherwise. But I also wouldn't be demeaning of other people's choices, education isn't a one size fits all.

It’s a good point about her being lonely - are there lots of other HE families around? I tend to keep home ed talk (both the successes and the struggles) with my home ed friends only, and my parents as they ask.

@queen he was an average sociable child when he was at primary school. He was young enough he didn’t continue the friendships independently.
He had no issues at school - he was just taken out at the same time as older sibling.

Perhaps physically lonely in the sense that this is her only purpose and her only social outlet is her children.

But my guess is that she has been sucked into an active online anti-schooling movement (hence 'unschooling' as opposed to home schooling). The unschooling movement tends to be 'anti-school', 'anti-school-system' and frothing with rebellious energy and zeal.

The 'anti-school' movement in the US thrives online. It is composed of believers from both the Christian fundamentalist right and from the ultra progressive left, a very unholy alliance.

The basic tenets of the faith are that school is a sausage factory (someone used the phrase upthread, interestingly) classrooms are 'holding cells' and damage is done to the children forced to spend their days there. The right criticises the (public, i.e. state) school system for the alleged immorality of the concept - getting between parents and children, and a state-run system - and the way it supposedly exposes children to secular humanism. The left criticises it for not being completely individual-child-centric enough. Some of this group are 150% committed to the attachment parenting model and many claim that their children have never left their side.

There is some intersection of attitudes towards vaccination and other mandated elements of American life.

There is some crossover between unschoolers, antivaxers, and people who support Steiner-Waldorf education.

'Sausage factory' implies a very distasteful process and a completely uniform product that is palatable only if you turn a willfully blind eye to how that was achieved.

My guess is that she is failing to critically assess online content that she has encountered and is experiencing the cognitive difficulties associated with swallowing it whole. It's a very deep and murky deep end that she has apparently dived headfirst into.