To think you can be an animal lover and eat meat?

[MyOtherUsernameisaPun]

I know I'm going to be flamed, have donned protective gear...

But I think that it's hypocritical to eat meat and claim to be an animal lover. That isn't to say meat eaters don't deeply love their pets - I fully accept that they do! But I think that in those cases they only love certain animals, not animals generally.

We know that pigs are far more intelligent than dogs. We know that cows form close social bonds with specific individuals within the herd. We know enough to confidently state that there is no reason to separate pets from any other species except that we are conventionally accustomed to doing so.

I think everyone is free to make their own choices and whether or not I approve of them is totally irrelevant. But I don't think there is any logical grounds for a meat eater to claim that they are an animal lover when they're happy for some kinds of animals to suffer and be killed.

I'm quite surprised- seeing this thread I was convinced it would turn into a goady one but actually I think the question has prompted some good debate.

Still love my steak though!

I 100% agree with you OP! YADNBU.

No, we evolved to be OMNIVORES. That means we can obtain all of our nutritional requirements without eating meat.

What about this is confusing? It is extremely simple.

That said, I think the argument from evolution is positively ridiculous in a world where food is clearly cultural, social and highly technicized. The arguments against eating meat on animal-loving grounds can be structural and economic: the damage done to ecosystems (and human populations) by energy and resource intensive animal farming.

@MargoLovebutter I don't think it's that hard to understand that killing an animals because there will be terrible consequences if you don't is different to killing an animal because you want a burger?!

Like I said, I would prefer not to see any animal killed. But I'm not advocating for the total destruction of a habitat and the decimation of many species because red deer populations are running wild. My preferred solution is the reintroduction of wolves to the Scottish highlands, but since we're a long way from that ever being possible I'll accept the culling of deer for the sake of saving the red squirrels, hares, hedgehogs, mice, wildcats, pine martens and other assorted species threatened by overgrazing from deer. It's not ideal, but it's justifiable.

I also wouldn't actually have a particular problem with people eating the culled deer. Better that it not go to waste if they're killed anyway. But again this is very clearly not the same as raising an animal specifically for meat.

@orlandointhewilderness I wouldn't eat them myself but I'm much less bothered by it than by farmed meat. A wild animal shot in the course of a necessary cull isn't the same as livestock bred for slaughter imo.

We have steak nights twice a month, on a Friday. It's something we enjoy. I shouldn't be made to feel guilty because of that choice. Vegetarians have a lot to say.

@RedWineAllMine so don't feel guilty! If you don't think you're doing anything bad, you won't feel bad. But don't ask anyone to pretend that an animal hasn't suffered for your choice.

I find it really frustrating that people always make comments about how vegetarians or vegans have 'lots of say' or are preachy. I've actually never been questioned so much or mocked so heavily since becoming vegan (mostly vegan, I still eat dairy every so often). It seems to be such a taboo subject that we aren't allowed to talk about for fear of being told we're preaching, even if it is just general conversation or stating facts when asked questions.

Out of interest OP, if everyone went vegetarian then there is a very high chance we would lose many breeds of cattle and pigs and meat breed sheep. What are your views on seeing them go into decline and vanish? Is it better from your point of view thet they don't exist in the first place?

"I don’t question why you’re a vegetarian, why would I? It’s your choice. Similarly I don’t expect to defend my choice to eat meat. So you enjoy your nut roast or whatever, I’ll tuck into my bacon sandwich and everyone’s happy, no?"

Well no, because there are social, economic and environmental consequences to those decisions that stretch beyond individual choices. None of us - vegetarian, vegan, meat-eating - can escape the fact that some of the choices that we make do damage that is borne collectively (by humans) and by wider ecosystems too. Vegetarians and vegans have made a decision to limit the damage in one area, but that doesn't let them off the hook for every single decision! A vegetarian who flies a lot probably does more environmental damage than a meat-eater who doesn't!

Basically, we all have to try to tread more lightly on each other, and on the planet, in future. It's just how it is. Not eating meat is one way of lessening the impact.

I've only read op as I have to go on school run, but I think the exact opposite is true.
So yabu.
The biggest genuine animal lovers I know, are all big meat eaters. They also tend to hunt/catch their own.

I think you should really be vegan OP if you actually care - dairy and eggs - those aint got happy endings!

I like chicken - I eat chicken

I like animals but I am also not really bothered about killing things to eat as long as they have been raised humanely and treated well

Still don't get it. Why is some form of animal control ok but not controlling them to eat them?

And of course being vegetarian or vegan is so much more restricted since you can only actually consume locally produced products. After all, importing products from abroad is so damaging to the environment that anyone who is veg or vegan for moral/ethical reasons wouldn’t dream of eating things such as olives, or olive oil, or any tropical fruits/veg, most nuts are grown abroad so you can’t have those either....

Ghosty eggs would be fine from your own hens.

OH is a sheep farmer, I absolutely love all animals, i look after the sheep and the lambs.

I know where they are going at the end of it all so i make sure they are well cared for and looked after right up until the day they go.
It does make me a little sad when they go but knowing they don't suffer when "it" happens and knowing they had a brilliant start in life.

Until i met my OH i had images of sheep/cows being crammed in small sheds with no outdoor life (i dont know why i thought this but i did!) and seeing it all first hand makes me happier about the whole situation.

I have sat there all night nursing lambs, keeping them warm, feeding them little bits every hour when they weren't strong enough to have large amounts, not because OH's profit goes down the pan if they die but because i genuinely care about the welfare of them and couldn't go home to my warm bed knowing that little lamb was struggling.

I still eat meat by the way....

A friend of mine came to visit all the new baby lambs a few months back and she put some photos up on facebook - specifically of 4 baby (orphan) lambs just days old whose mothers had rejected them, just point blank refused to let them near them, so we did the obvious right thing and hand reared them.
They were in a very large pen indoors (it was still winter and freezing outside just to add).
A vegan friend of my friend started sending her messages upon messages of abuse about how she shouldn't be encouraging my behaviour and that keeping lambs indoors was cruel...

It was pointed out that had these lambs been outside they would have died very quickly as they had no mother and therefore no food source - this was quickly dismissed by claims that they would have learned to fend for themselves.... some people have no idea about how it all works.

I think it’s a bit like saying you can’t really care about people if you buy clothes made in sweatshops. We’re all complicit in suffering.

I’ve nevet eaten meat and don’t wear leather or buy products tested on animals. I do use medicine, and eat dairy. We all have to set our own ethical boundaries.

I find the reputation vegetarians have for going on about it annoying as I don’t know any who do, but I know loads of meat eaters who never shut up giving out to me, waving bacon sandwiches in my face, when I’ve never even tasted it etc.

In terms of impact to the environment, we definitely eat too much meat.
We only need a small amount for our daily needs.

We shouldn't have carnivorous pets either, then. Tough luck cats and dogs.

"both those who are killed and those whose habitats are destroyed to make room for the grain production required to sustain the meat industry"

What about those animals whose habitat is destroyed to make room for the grain production required to sustain the human demand for grain? or for all the other crops we expect to be able to exploit to sustain our lifestyles. Don't get me wrong - I'm sympathetic to the message of vegetarianism, we have two veggies in our house and the rest of us only meat once a week or so - but there is little about the human food chain that doesn't damage other species.

On a side note where do you stand on being an animal lover and pest control? We keep horses and there is a subsequent and considerable number of rabbits and mice that have to be dealt with each year to protect the horses welfare. I stopped counting at 120 mice killed last autumn between traps and killing them personally (no idea how many the yard cat has had), and 30 rabbits shot. The rabbits at least get eaten but the mice go on the muck heap.

How do you stand on killing some animals for love of another? I take pride in getting the job done with as little suffering as possible, I don't use poison and I avoid the cat playing with the things as far as possible, but part of looking after the horse as well as possible is killing off anything that may harm him...

I guess the question is the magnitude of the harm, irian. Some foods are more resource-intensive and more damaging than others.

Orlando I have no idea whether the junk mail through the letterbox, or indeed the invoices plonked on my desk at work are from sustainable forest sources. And even if I did, then there would be nothing I could do about it. I do, however, buy kitchen roll and loo roll made with recycled paper, and will check other things I buy if possible. And I haven't bought any furniture for years. If and when I do, it definitely won't be oak or any other hardwood.

Back on topic, yes you can be an animal-lover and eat meat. Not that I do all that often. Humans are omnivores and we have the teeth to prove it.

I don't understand pp who are annoyed at the OP
'openly judging'

It's an anonymous forum and it clearly states what the topic is about. She's hardly flouncing up to you and shouting in your face as your eating a hamburger! Just don't click the thread if you don't want to hear other people's differing opinions

@MargoLovebutter because in one instance you are killing an animal as a necessary evil to prevent more significant harm from occurring, and in the other you are killing an animal because you like the taste of flesh.

I refuse to believe that you can't understand the difference between those two things - necessity and preference.

I do wonder how we would make a living if everyone became vegan. We’re mainly arable farmers so our income isn’t based around slaughter of animals, and if it really takes such small amounts of land to sustain humans, we probably wouldn’t make enough money for the upkeep of the Farm unless we charged extortionate amounts for the produce.

jitter I probably wouldn’t have clicked the thread if the title had been more accurate to the content...