Why is Mumsnet allowing itself to be bullied by Shon Faye?

[Manyfridays]

Really sad that this site is going to allow itself amd women on here to be bullied and silenced. Most of all because the support here for abused women is some of the best on the net and now the actual site is allowing itself to essentially be abused and bullied into submission

if the word "woman" is redefined to be an identity rather than biological classification, what word should be used to refer to adults of the sex that produces ova and gestates young? The removal of language to define this group is what leads to concerns that the distinct needs and challenges faced by this group will no longer be able to be described, monitored or addressed.

This is really important to me. The experience of bearing children, being harassed the second I developed breast, having 'period' thrown in my face very time I was angry or upset... these are biological things. How do we name and describe them with no language?

The only sensible answer to that PDGTT, is your identity is yours and yours alone to decide.

Absolutely. You can identify yourself in any way you like.
The only thing you can't do is take the word used by more than half the population to describe their biological nature, and misuse it to describe someone of an entirely different biology.

@gladallover dont want to - and its not that I want it to be only gender critical feminists allowed here either - its just the lack of balance. I am called cis even though I object - I see biological facts being deleated - I see TRA's voice being allowed to dominate how we talk amd what we discuss.
Mumsnet has been so much to me - I became a grown up here and honestly a better mother and a better person

Agree with you totally Manyfridays.
There is room here for men, women, transmen and transwomen. All should be accepted without prejudice or criticism.

But I for one cannot and will not accept that someone born with intact male genitalia can ever be a woman.

I've just said this on another thread. It is really important to challenge the "transwomen are women" narrative.

If we accept it, we have to accept that all the earnest "single sex spaces will remain" reassurances from various politicians are worthless, because the single sex class that includes adult human females also includes adult human males.

@maryz - totally - its also the pro noun thing . When the woman who was attacked at speakers corner is directed by a judge to call her attacker 'she' because thats their preference. I see future rape cases where victims have to call thier rapists she and will be admonish if they forget :(
I then come here and see the same srandarfs being applied - women told basically to be nice - to sit down and shut up.

Is it because in this scenario it is women who are being asked to check their privilege?

Oh for fuck's sake. Privilege? Privilege, when the sexual harassment started at 11? The privilege to have been raped? The privilege to be always seen as lesser, of less value, whose opinions are less, because I am female?
And not for one second do I think my experience is in any way unusual, par for the course in fact.

What utter fucking bullshit. Privilege.

Is it because in this scenario it is women who are being asked to check their privilege?

Oh for fuck's sake. Privilege? Privilege, when the sexual harassment started at 11? The privilege to have been raped? The privilege to be always seen as lesser, of less value, whose opinions are less, because I am female?
And not for one second do I think my experience is in any way unusual, par for the course in fact.

What utter fucking bullshit. Privilege.

YY to all of this. What the trans debate has taught me is just how utterly ingrained misogyny is for so many people. To know about rape conviction rates and hear about #metoo and knowing how many women and girls claims were ignored on Savile and Weinstein or Cosby or any other sexual predator and then say that women and girls have cis privilege?
The arrogance and misogyny is breath taking.

The arrogance and misogyny is breath taking

And the ignorance and entitlement.

There's no need to even bring this issue into the realms of transphobia. We need to reframe the argument to move it away from whether trans women are women or not and get back to the point of the debate: at present, male/female spaces are segregated. No one is arguing that. We simply need to remember why we bother to segregate spaces in the first place. Once we can answer that, we can decide whether or not the same criteria apply to trans women.

This is how I've approached this at work. My psych wards remain segregated based on biology. This is because they were originally segregated due to the high rates of pregnancy and sexual relations between patients which make therapeutic treatment difficult or have negative impacts at a vulnerable time, and the risk of disparate rates of violence between those with male physiques and hormones vs female physiques and hormones. Trans women who still have a penis and are not undergoing hormone therapy pose the same risks and meet the same criteria as men in these respects. Therefore they don't get treated on the female ward. Easy.

(That's not to say the male ward is the right place either, but the female ward certainly isn't.)

We need to move away from the politics and accusations and remember what the real argument is about.

Creampie I saw a item (I think on here) recently in which an intact trans women was on a ward with three women. One was afraid of men, one was sexually promiscuous. I can't remember the third.

The one who was afraid of men and found her files then said she was transphobic.

Afraid of men complained*

Trans women deserve the same rights, protection and spaces as cis women. Trans women are women. No question about it.

Trans women are women. No question about it.

You can parrot this lie for the rest of your life, it will remain a lie. They are not women.

Trans women are women. No question about it.

Um.... I have a question. On what basis are transwomen women? How do you define 'woman'?

Look, that was two questions!

dinosaur There are many transwomen who themselves acknowledge they are not actually women and believe statements such as yours are doing them a huge disservice. Are you telling those transwomen they are wrong about their own identity?

problem is for me if trans women are women then I no longer have the tools or language to define myself as a woman without being a 'bigot'. I don't want to be a bigot in defining myself. Am happy to share space and be respectful and all that, but it's a bit like inviting a guest to stay and they turn up with a removals van, cart all your stuff off for auction, and start re-landscaping and redecorating. if trans women want to share our space I say they have to let us keep our furniture. I've never ever once heard women who can't conceive demand that no other woman talks about her biology.

Transwomen are entitled to respect.
But they are not women.

Great post mousecar Sums up my position.

I’m torn when it comes to adopting ‘she/her’ pronouns for self-defining TRAs. On one hand I’m happy to because I want to be respectful and accepting and call people what they want to be called. But that’s the thing, I’d be doing it as a courtesy, not because it’s their right.

It would be social mores motivating me, not the truth or neutral facts. And as it’s mostly bulkshit social mores that got us into this mess, it’s a bit of a self-defeating argument.

why have you targeted the word woman which means of the sex that makes eggs. Why not make up your own word which doesn't have that definition as part of it?. Why don’t we give them ‘lady’ or ‘laydee’ for when they’re feeling fancy. None of us like it anyway so we won’t miss it and the can leave ‘woman’ the fuck alone.

Simply, as long as there has been an English language the word 'woman' has meant the sex that bears children.

If a word is now required to describe a transwoman, then 'transwoman' seems an obvious one. But I wouldn't want to force a name that isn't liked. I'd be very happy for such a person to choose a name that they can be happy and contented with.

Choose your name, and I'll use it and respect it. But sorry, it can't be 'woman' because you aren't a woman.

thanks Ringbinger and yep that's the difficult bit - i think the majority of us would mostly try to be nice - and look where that gets us. I'd love to have/see this trans rights conversation in the reality realm - you know, separate from the bonkers one where anyone who says they're a woman is one. I think it could be a lot more productive.

mousecar absolutely most of try to be nice - this applies to many men as well as women of course it's just 'nice' has always been viewed more as a female trait than a male one and it's something girls & women have been trained to be, and chastised if they're not.

So there's an irony in that some of the TRAs self-defined women haven't been very nice or courteous, including arguably the person this thread is about... (to bring it back to the thread title!)