Why is Mumsnet allowing itself to be bullied by Shon Faye?

[Manyfridays]

Really sad that this site is going to allow itself amd women on here to be bullied and silenced. Most of all because the support here for abused women is some of the best on the net and now the actual site is allowing itself to essentially be abused and bullied into submission

Penguin That is sad.
I have already noticed that the amount of posts and comments on Mumsnet has went down in general. If the feminists go, I think the site will decline further.

And could you please link to some examples of hate speech on here?

Totally confused. Had never heard of Shon Faye before but after a quick google am still in the dark. What exactly is happening that is causing concern?

I don't understand how posting that you think transwomen are women or not women is a hate crime. I am in my 30s, what if I wanted to be in my 20s, so decide I am. If you told me I was in my 30s would that be a hate crime?

I am mid 50s, being told that saying transwomen are men is a hate crime, just makes me smile cynically. And it makes me think you have either had a very easy life, are very young, or have very little resilience.

Seriously, some of us have had real discrimination in our lives. SMH

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how transwomen are women without using a gender stereotype.

It isn't transphobic, it's biology.

In what way are transwomen women?

Genuine question, really. I am honestly baffled by this. I have many times asked for a definition of "woman" that includes "transwomen" but excludes "men", and I've never seen one.

NK they can't, but biology is transphobic, didn't you know that?

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how transwomen are women without using a gender stereotype. if I could do that for you (so if I started a thread on it or whatever), what difference would that make to your standpoint please? Really keen to know.

Same question to you Maryz, if I could give you a working definition how would that impact your perspective? If at all?

x-post NKFell (and others)

I accept transwomen don't believe they are men, but they certainly aren't adult human females using the dictionary definition. Which means we are being forced to redefine the word "woman" but to what? It seems "woman" means "adult human, of any sex, who feels like a woman" and "man" means "adult human, of any sex, who feels like a man". But those are circular definitions - and untrue anyway, because many women don't feel like women, they just are.

I have no idea how I would define "woman" without using any biological terms [baffled], but if anyone wants to give it a shot I would love to hear it.

An adult human who feels womanly (circular)
An adult human who feels like a woman (circular)
An adult human who isn't a man (Green Party definition, but really, come on )
An adult human who is feminine - nope, excludes me
An adult human who does female things - also excludes me
An adult human who presents as female - also excludes me most of the time and anyway what does "presenting as" mean? Clothes and makeup?
An adult human who identifies as a woman - circular and excludes most women.

In what way are transwomen women

Oh you know, all those feminine things like long hair, pink shoes, skirts, lipstick.

Not the biological stuff such as chromosomes, hormones, vaginas. Not years of social conditioning.

Rat it might me but it would have to be a definition I agree with. And I'm afraid one without biology is likely to do it . Even if it's one with common experiences the majority of those experiences will be connected to biology. Sorry.

Go ahead RatRolyPoly. I keep seeing you say you have one, but I've yet to see it.

I expect you are too busy at the moment

And by the way I would be perfectly polite to any trans woman, I would use preferred pronouns. I think they should be protected from discrimination. That they shouldn’t be harassed.

But if you were to ask me if I believed a trans woman is a woman I would have to say no. They’re a trans woman. There’s a difference.

Rat I would be interested to hear it.
To me, being a woman is about being biologically female, so sex organs, being of the sex class that can grow babies and feed them, having periods and female anatomy related health problems, and female related drug issues etc.
I've yet to hear anything convincing, but that doesn't stop the mansplaining about male and female brains and karyotes and other such unproven stuff.
People can be who they want, dress how they want, call themselves what they want, but biology trumps feels. Sex change ops may help someone to live with themselves more comfortably, but it doesn't make them the opposite sex. Anything that becomes about validation at the cost of sense is dangerous IMO.
As someone on Twitter said: Mother Nature; the greatest transphobe of them all.

And yes I find the term “cis woman” offensive. Something which the majority of the TRAs are well aware of.....that a lot of women find it offensive. But they merrily carry on using it.

Take this shit back to feminism chat.

I’m appalled about the amount of hate speech on here. It’s embarrassing and it’s definitely time people started to call
MN out on it.

When Shon Faye decides to take on all the male dominated forums that spout actual transphobia then maybe I will take them seriously. From where I'm standing this just looks like an attempt at silencing women. Nothing new and very male behaviour.

Transwomen are not women: my belief in this is backed up by biology- xx/ xy chromosomes, natural hormone levels etc. Without medical intervention, and excluding a minority of intersex people from this specific discussion, a person born male, with xy chromosomes, remains a male. They can surgically alter their body and temporarily reduce specific hormone levels whilst on meds; they can do resent as a woman and identify with women but the hey are not a woman. The ronly verse is true for people born female.
If you've gone to the effort of surgery etc then, afaik, bilogically male or notcome and change with us. If you have a penis then, sorry, you don't belong in a female sex specific place.
I've got my Spartacus on- see you in aibu!

I too have no issue with being polite to individual transwomen who are polite in return. And I support absolutely human rights for trans people of both sexes, especially transexuals who appear to be in the process of being thrown under the bus by transactivists.

I struggle to be polite to misogynistic TRAs though, in the same way as I'm happy to be polite to men (in general) but draw the line at misogynistic MRAs.