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Original poster

Why is Mumsnet allowing itself to be bullied by Shon Faye?

223 replies

Manyfridays · 03/05/2018 14:31

Really sad that this site is going to allow itself amd women on here to be bullied and silenced. Most of all because the support here for abused women is some of the best on the net and now the actual site is allowing itself to essentially be abused and bullied into submission

OP posts:
Elendon · 03/05/2018 16:19

Let's forget about 'safe' spaces for a moment and the battle for them.

If everything was gender neutral and all fine and dandy do you think for one moment their arguments would go away?

Maryz · 03/05/2018 16:19

Oh, Skarossinkplunger, I'm terribly sorry, you personally didn't use the word mantra. I will rephrase my question to exclude the word and I am sure you will find it much easier to understand and will be able to answer:

"Read my post (at 16:03:47) and explain to me how accepting the phrase "transwomen ar women" is not harming women in any way"

Obviously you don't have to answer, but generally on chat sites if you state something (such as "this isn't harming you personally") it's polite to back that statement up.

therealposieparker · 03/05/2018 16:20

Any trans activists bullying Mumsnet should have a go at this quiz.... called "Am I a narcissist?" www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/resolution-not-conflict/201210/are-you-narcissist-6-sure-signs-narcissism

JaneyEJones · 03/05/2018 16:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SuitedandBooted · 03/05/2018 16:35

Some posters have mentioned that they don't know much about Shon, as they don't have a Twitter account. You don't need one, you can Google "Shon Faye twitter", and go on from there.

Idontdowindows · 03/05/2018 16:36

Saying otherwise IS transphobia.

words, what do they mean eh.

ReliefOfChaos · 03/05/2018 16:47

"Can you answer my question why it's acceptable for TRA's to call women 'cis' but they call transphobia when others call transwomen 'trans' women'?"

That question can be thrown right back at you - why is it acceptable to refer to 'trans' women and be offended when you are called 'cis'? Clearly either both are acceptable or both are offensive.

The trouble with defining anything is that all definitions are ostensive - it's just pointing at something and grunting and hoping that the other person takes your meaning. Arguing about what the definition of a woman is makes no more sense than arguing about what the definition of green is. The only possible answer is to point and go 'Um, that is'.

I'm also not comfortable with the way trans issues are spoken about on Mumsnet. People keep asking for links to hate speech, or saying tell me why making statements about biology is offensive but it's the framing that's offensive. The only posts that we see are highlighting some offense committed by a trans person (often halfway across the globe) and it looks as though it's being looked for. I think the best (or at least most provocative) analogy would be if I constantly posted about women who had made false rape accusations, and then stood around saying "What? I'm just posting facts. This is what happens." But clearly I'm posting with a hateful agenda.

SusannahL · 03/05/2018 16:48

Right, these are the facts:

If you were born with the XY chromosome you are male
If you were born with the XX chromosome you are female.

It doesn't matter how many hormones an individual has pumped into them, or how many operations are performed , the facts above remain.

UrsulaPandress · 03/05/2018 16:52

OK I don't care anymore. Cancel all sex segregated everything. Sport, prisons, toilets, medicine, the whole kit and caboodle. Let's just all share - and see where that gets us.

JaneyEJones · 03/05/2018 16:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Xenia · 03/05/2018 17:00

It is not transphobic to call transwomen men. my own view is that if you have had surgery and transitioned , take hormones, have surgery then the law has decided to treat you like a woman and most of us can accept that as it must be horrible born into the wrong body etc.

If you just self declare there is no way you are a woman; that's like saying black is white.

I don't hate anyone on the planet. I do thnk we should be free to discuss what we like and if transwomen are upset by that perhaps they should get a bit more therapy.

I think the 2004 Act is about right and we should keep the law as it currently stands. I don't think it's ttransphobic to express that view - indeed the protection of the 2004 Act whch does not even require people to have surgery before they can apply for their cerificate but requiring you be over 18 and have lived the gender for 2 years etc seems about right to me for such a drastic thing as change of legal status.

Maryz · 03/05/2018 17:02

"Arguing about what the definition of a woman is makes no more sense than arguing about what the definition of green is. The only possible answer is to point and go 'Um, that is'."

I don't think we are allowed to go "um, that is" using the old criteria by which we, as humans, recognise people who are male and people who are female. And even if we could, that wouldn't make much of a definition in law.

How do you suggest defining protections for women if the definition of woman is "um, that is"? Or are you suggesting getting rid of all women-only spaces and all sex segregation and all legal protection on the grounds of sex? So no more women's sport, no more maternity leave etc etc.

If that's your opinion, that's fine. But for those of us who do want to preserve legal protections on the grounds of sex, how should people (of either sex) be defined in law?

ReliefOfChaos · 03/05/2018 17:10

That's kind of the point - there is no absolute definition so whatever definition you use is going to be completely arbitrary. It's going to be a definition of convenience - whatever it takes so the other person understands your grunt. So wherever you set the line in the law, going around saying trans women aren't REAL women is pointless (and offensive to many). It's a bad grunt.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 03/05/2018 17:13

I love when Tru comes on threads and tells all the women who are indignantly insisting that trans women are women, that actually NO...they are male and he should know as he is in fact transsexual himself!!😃😃😃 I have yet to see one of them come back with an argument.

Idontdowindows · 03/05/2018 17:15

Woman: A woman is a female human being. The term woman is usually reserved for an adult.

Female: of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

So no, men cannot be women.

Also, the very fact that only those born male can be transwomen kind of gives the game away.

numberseven · 03/05/2018 17:15

OK I don't care anymore. Cancel all sex segregated everything. Sport, prisons, toilets, medicine, the whole kit and caboodle. Let's just all share - and see where that gets us.

Many trans activists don't want that though. It does not validate their womanhood to hang out in shared spaces.

ArmySal · 03/05/2018 17:16

Women are women and men are men, and never the twain shall meet.

NotTerfNorCis · 03/05/2018 17:23

Hi @RatRolyPoly you offered to prove that transwomen are women without using any gender stereotypes. Could you point me to where you did that please? Genuinely curious.

FloraFox · 03/05/2018 17:28

If, rather than saying "transwomen are women. no debate" the TRAs said "transwomen should be treated as if they were women because X, Y, Z" we could have a discussion about how that impacts women and whether the impacts are justified by X, Y and Z and what safeguards we might put in place to prevent abuse by people who just want access to women, we would be able to examine how we address the issue and find a workable compromise. Instead they say if you don't agree transwomen are just as much of a woman as you (even with beard, cock and balls) you are a hateful bigot, they are and always have been female and should be treated so in every way, they never commit crimes against women and no man would ever pretend to be a transwoman to get access to women so shut up bigot.

With that attitude, the only thing women can do is resist. There is no reach out by TRAs for compromise.

LangCleg · 03/05/2018 17:34

A guy on Twitter often says, There is no objective definition of woman pursuant to which transwomen are women, and I've yet to see any of the hundreds of people he's asked provide him with one.

It sucks if you're dysphoric but it's the truth.

As for Shon, I'll attribute purity of motive in the targeting of Mumsnet on the day Shon also targets men's forums such as Pistonheads for anti-transphobia campaigning.

Until then - a day I'm betting is the twelfth of never - I'll maintain my current opinion: Shon is a misogynist currently engaged in abusively stalking women for being non-compliant.

MarvelleGazelle · 03/05/2018 17:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CuntinuousMingeprovement · 03/05/2018 17:49

My post got deleted so I'll try again using a non swear word. Shon Faye is utterly appalling.

Maryz · 03/05/2018 17:51

A thread linking to a piece written by Shon Faye under a previous name (am I allowed to say that, or is it transphobic to assume SF was ever anyone else?) has just been deleted as goady.

Maryz · 03/05/2018 17:52

It probably was goady. But it was also interesting to see that SF was not always (according to SF) a woman which I find confusing, because if I was to say SF used to be a man I'd probably be deleted

Idontdowindows · 03/05/2018 17:53

It's all very strange, because if you are born biologically female, you can never become a transwoman.

Only those born biologically male can become transwomen.

That says something about what transwomen are biologically. Even if we're not allowed to say it, reality does it for us.

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