To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

[EyeRollChampion]

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

It’s very easy to cry bullying and ridiculing when it’s actually just debate. Strongly worded maybe, but still debate.

Hahahahahaha....haha... hahahahaha!

Sorry about that, couldn't help myself.

It's not always "just debate". Sometimes it is bullying. Sometimes it is ridiculing. You shouldn't be so dismissive of these things because if you refuse to see them - when multiple victims are right there in front of you telling you they've experienced them - you may as well be supporting them.

Disclaimer: there is good debate out there, a minority are guilty, but you really do have to be a certain sort to get past the ad hominem attacks and intimidation sometimes!

Like the poster who insisted that being trans made her the butt of all jokes in the 70s.

No, mother-in-laws were the butt of all jokes in the 70s.

Perhaps MILs should rise up.

@EyeRollChampion I don't believe that someone who has a penis is a woman, and I don't believe you really believe that either.

It does concern me that you are trying to enforce your pretend belief on the rest of us.

Trans gender people can ask for their own spaces and services.

Eyeroll I'll ask again, if you believe this:

"Supporting self ID is GOOD for women. We've fought a long time for desegregation, so why are we holding on with a death grip to black and white gender binaries? Why can't gender be as diverse as the people who occupy those categories?

Sex organs do not make you an inherent danger. They may make you uncomfortable, granted. They may be a trigger for rape and DV victims. In an ideal world none of this would be an issue. But we can't punish a whole group of people for the actions of a few"

Then why don't you argue that all spaces, including toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards and school dormitories, should be mixed-sex? What's the rationale for 'segregation' by gender identity?

Ah. A debate. Good.

Sexual assault & DV. Both women and men can be subject to these. the reason there are specific things for this for women is that they are more subject to them than others. By all means campaign for e.g. refuges for everyone. But it is not fair to a woman who has been subject to DV by a man and flees to a refuge with her children who have witnessed this, to insist that she is dealt with by a biological man or share accommodation/living space with him. Not when she is traumatised.

Systemic bullying & prejudice. Those are not gender specific and so highlighting this does not impact womens rights at all.

Murder. How will insisting that women give up their single sex safe spaces prevent trans murders?

It seems to me that most of the issues (prejudice perhaps aside) you mention are perpetrated more likely by men. So why isn't the trans community up in arms about men? Why is all the abuse directed at women?

If trans people campaigned for their own spaces that would be one thing. But expecting us to not see biological differences is another.

The issues that trans people face do not negate the implications of self-id being used by men to encroach on women's spaces.

some in female prisons are male
Does anybody else just despair that some of the most vulnerable women in society are in prison with men??

If there was a good reason for it I could almost understand but how come one man's rights to "feel like a woman" comes above the rights of all the women in that prison?

I don't remember the exact figures I'm sorry to say. It was part of my undergraduate course in forensic psychology a few years back. I'm sure the figures are out there.

What has being tough got to do with my right to express an alternative pov? And where did I cry bullying? Yet more goading from MNers. ..

rat where did I say it never happens? Of course some people go too far. In that case, report and move on, but most people on the feminism boards keep it pretty civil.

You could say that you going ‘hahahahaha couldn’t help myself’ at me is ridiculing, couldn’t you? It doesn’t bother me, but that’s what it is.

If you don’t like it, and want to stand up against it, don’t do things that look very much like it yourself.

OP you talked about bullying in your very first post - ‘ganged up on’ means bullying so not sure why you’re saying this now isn’t about bullying.

There are far more biologically female sex offenders in this country than there are trans women

I don't think your figures can be correct there.

There were under 150 women convicted for sex offences in the UK in 2016 (and at least a few of those were male, but that's hard to quantify) as opposed to over 10,000 men convicted that year.

Even assuming that it's a lifelong trait and multiplying that up by an average adult lifespan gives me 7,500 females max.

What proportion of the UK male population are transgender? 0.1%? That would give you 30 thousand transwomen, so the figures don't sound like they stack up to me.

I don't remember the exact figures I'm sorry to say. It was part of my undergraduate course in forensic psychology a few years back. I'm sure the figures are out there
OK I am going to see if I can find them because I trust that you have genuinely forgotten.

Expressing a belief different to yours is not trying to enforce that belief on others! Ye gads.

THIS is the whole point of this thread!

Right - my kids are home so I'll leave you lot to descend into madness. I'm off to build a blanket fort.

Have fun! Xxx

op why is it ok for you to get exasperated (ye gads, THIS is the whole point) then? You say you don’t like people being mocked but that’s how your exasperation comes off. Like we are too dumb to understand you.

I don’t get people like you. So quick to say ‘you’re ganging up/ridiculing’ but also quick enough to do the same yourself.

You could say that you going ‘hahahahaha couldn’t help myself’ at me is ridiculing, couldn’t you?

Yes, I suppose you could. Point taken.

In real life I'm very much a gentle piss-taker and I assure you it is in good spirits. I rein myself in 99.9% of the time on MN 'cos I realised early on that tone was not conveyed and I didn't want anyone to feel mocked! So this was an iladvised return to good-natured teasing on my part, but you're absolutely right, it doesn't translate. And looks particularly bad in the context. I didn't mean for you to take it as ridicule, promise.

The number of trans sex offenders is irrelevant to the self-ID issue. Self ID means that any predatory man can claim to be a transwoman in order to get access to women and children. We have seen over the past 20 years the lengths some male predators will go to to get such access - and interestingly, there was initially a lot of public incredulity and disbelief over allegations that we have now sadly found to be all too true.

Expressing a belief different to yours is not trying to enforce that belief on others! Ye gads

It is when you use the tactic of calling us transphobes etc for having different ones. The ones that make sense.

There is sex and there is gender. And the issue keeps being that people conflate the two.

Sex is definable, biological and verifiable with very few exceptions. Gender is cultural, amorphous and changing.

It is entirely possible to celebrate people doing whatever the hell they like with gender. Wear a dress and heels while changing your tyres and farting. Knock yourself out.

But some things need to be on the basis of sex; prisons, rape crisis, hospital wards, and women being allowed to talk about sex-based issues like pregnancy, FGM, periods and BFing.

None of this should be transphobic. Sensible trans posters have agreed that self ID and making gender the only definition is dangerous for women and trans people.

It gets heated because some TRAs want women who say the above to be punched in the face, curb stomped and silenced.

Your numbers are way off . if your opinion on risks to women and girls is related to them then your risk calculations are way off.

Everyone wants to seen as fair and inclusive and kind but when you can't imagine yourself in prison or psychiatric ward or your children in a children's home it is all too easy to forget about the truly vulnerable women and girls out there.

rat as I said, I couldn’t care less, I just don’t get why people like you think that when you do it it’s ‘gentle mocking’ but when others do it it’s bullying or ridiculing.

No one is a villain in their own mind. Everyone justifies themselves.

I doubt there’s anyone on here who thinks ‘I will bulky and ridicule today’, like you they also think they’re just trying to be humouous or express themselves as best they can.

Let’s try to set the same standards for ourselves as we do for others.

It's not men who identify as women we think shouldn't be allowed to self-ID (though as with GRCs we'd prefer that there were still single-sex spaces).
And it isn't women who identify as men (but we think they should still have access to female-only spaces)
It's men who pretend to identify as women.
MWPTIAW if you will.
If you have a foolproof way to tell the difference we'd love to hear it.

why are we holding on with a death grip to black and white gender binaries?

You have so fundamentally misunderstood the position you are trying to criticise that I barely know where to begin with you.

Those who want to preserve a "gender binary" say aye.

Those who want to abolish gender say no.

Those who think the OP has not grasped the fundamental position of gender critical feminists roll your eyes.

Which part of GENDER CRITICAL escaped you, OP?

when you do it it’s ‘gentle mocking’ but when others do it it’s bullying or ridiculing.

Well the fact there's one of me and generally many people in the examples posters are giving. So many posters not only to see themselves but to see each other. So there is rather a difference isn't there.

We all like to talk about so-called safe spaces. There are far more biologically female sex offenders in this country than there are trans women. Where are they peeing/getting changed?

Don't be ridiculous. You sound like a Men's Rights Activist.

rat nah you’ve lost me. Sounds like some victim mentality stuff where you feel like you can say whatever but when more than one person disagrees with you, you’re being bullied.

Maybe just keep your ‘ribbing’ and ‘mocking’ and ‘kidding’ for people who also agree it’s funny but generally I find people who use that kind of humour to be abusive/passive agressive. (I would know, I also used to be like that.)

Nothing to do with the thread anyway really.