To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

[EyeRollChampion]

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

Expressing a belief different to yours is not trying to enforce that belief on others!

It is when that belief (men are women) is enforced on pain of loss of livelihood, safety and even life.

Women are being threatened and attacked for stating biological reality.

You sound like a Men's Rights Activist
But hang on a minute we have to think of the poor men who might be triggered by having a penis in their hospital ward or changing room.

Hang on a minute, they are men and they have penises too.

Doesn't it make so much more sense that womens' spaces stay as they are?

I have read some if your posts Eyeroll and to be honest, I think you are kind of missing the point, and IMO you seem to have preconceptions about the feminist community here, and are generalising views (and wrongly so).

The first point you're missing is that you seem to think you are the only one, or in the minority, that thinks that being pro womens' rights means doesn't have to equate to being anti trans. This is something I see time and time again in arguments on here. It's ignoring the reality that many women feel supportive of trans rights on their own terms - in that all trans people deserve to feel safe, protected and not persecuted.

The second is that you seem to think that there is no area between progression of trans rights and erosion of womens rights; in other words, from what I can tell you believe that the feminist argument for the retention of female only spaces has to result in negative impact on the trans community, instead of it being plausible and reasonable for the solution to be trans safe/gender neutral spaces and services.

The stats you have quoted (with no sources as of the time I am writing this) are questionable but even if they aren't, it once again doesn't mean that if for example there is a high rate of violent crime against trans people, that the solution is Self ID and the use of womens services. It just doesn't make sense that those are the conclusions that would or should be drawn and frankly I have had an in depth discussion with a male friend who turned out to have very MRA aligned views - he used the same type of flawed logic that basically boils down to "these people are persecuted = it's womens' fault"

rat nah you’ve lost me. Sounds like some victim mentality stuff where you feel like you can say whatever but when more than one person disagrees with you, you’re being bullied.

Yep.

Sounds like some victim mentality stuff where you feel like you can say whatever but when more than one person disagrees with you, you’re being bullied.

You're right, I've lost you

Not to worry, it is a derail, as you say.

Sorry, there have been many posts since I started typing that and also sorry for the terrible grammar, I hope some sense can be made of it

Writing with a wiggly baby on my lap!

rat yet there you go again making the same little snippy comments.

why are we holding on with a death grip to black and white gender binaries?

We're not. Didn't you hear gender doesn't mean anything anymore? What we are holding on to is the male female sex binaries, because that is an unchanging reality.

Okay, well if you think my grinning faced comment was snippy I don't honestly think that's on me. But okay.

I’ve been accused of transphobia for discussing my endometriosis symptoms because some women don’t have a uterus and it’s insensitive to discuss it.

Until not very long ago, I felt like you, but the outright misogyny demonstrated by many TRAs and the silencing of women’s legitimate concerns is quite simply male privilege masquerading as something else.

I have several trans women friends who would never argue that they are actually women, they understand that their experiences and ours differ and it’s perfectly fine to acknowledge that.

rat no I think you saying ‘I’ve lost you’ as if my reply was totally dumb was quite uncalled for, especially considering you’re complaining about ridicule.

And I would LOVE an answer, since we're chatting...

Why do so many TRAs, and people that come on here to talk about this, get so angry with women talking about rights? There are people who harass, sexually assault and murder transwomen. Not very many in the UK, but still. Those people are massively, overwhelmingly male. I'm fairly sure that close to 100% of the poor, desperate sex worker transwomen murdered in the Americas were murdered by men.

But women are getting all the threats, abuse and shit for it. Why?

Self ID means that any predatory man can claim to be a transwoman in order to get access to women and children. We have seen over the past 20 years the lengths some male predators will go to to get such access

This is my problem with self ID.

We're not. Didn't you hear gender doesn't mean anything anymore? What we are holding on to is the male female sex binaries, because that is an unchanging reality

Absolutely!

FWIW, I have no problem with the concept of self ID outside of law altering legislation.

Okay, well look, what I meant was I have lost you - as in my explanation was lacking and I haven't communicated my point very well.

So what you said was not what I was meaning to say, but that yes, me continuing to clarify would indeed be a derail which I'm doing right now anyway, but last time, promise! so I was accepting fault and hoping to move aside and let the discussion continue.

big my problem too. Presumably I’ve been sharing changing rooms and such with transwomen for decades without realising it and I’ve never felt threatened. These people on twitter talking about punching women in the face - yeah, I feel threatened.

^ That was to Thisisthe :)

The number of trans sex offenders is irrelevant to the self-ID issue. Self ID means that any predatory man can claim to be a transwoman in order to get access to women and children. We have seen over the past 20 years the lengths some male predators will go to to get such access - and interestingly, there was initially a lot of public incredulity and disbelief over allegations that we have now sadly found to be all too true.

This - THIS is the point about women's safe spaces.

Why do so many TRAs, and people that come on here to talk about this, get so angry with women talking about rights?

Yes this is what I meant to say too. If you are so worried about people affected by DV and other violent crimes, why is it okay to advocate for trans people but only the bits that specifically negatively impact women and ignore how much women or anyone else suffers? It just comes across as quite misogynistic to me.

I am quite ignorant to a lot of the ins and outs of this debate but I just can't get my head around the logic, especially given the vast social context, that would dictate the best way to protect trans people is to label them as biological women. The only benefit I can really see for trans people as an arbitrary, false and very "first world problem" type of validation/acceptance, which on the surface doesn't seem to outweigh the potential ramifications.

OP I live in a place with self id. So far I can’t really see many problems with it. At work some of the male toilets have been made gender neutral so we have male female and gender neutral spaces. Most spaces are still segregated on the basis of sex. You can ask for a born female health care professional on the basis of dignity. Trans people are typically imprisioned in facilities that match their sex. It is absolutely fine. Self id is a serious process that cannot be done lightly. I don’t disagree with self id. I do however have no regard for the pretense that trans women are women, that is biologically impossible and so these differences need to be taken into consideration in future policies/legislation/guidelines.

OP I live in a place with self id. So far I can’t really see many problems with it

How would you personally know if other people were having problems with it?

Pink except that in the UK, even before self-ID:

A woman who wanted a female HCP to do a smear got a biological male. Who got huffy and said "but I'm a woman" when the patient pointed this out.
The toilets at the recent student trans conference were male, and gender neutral. No female toilets.
Men who identify as women have petitioned (and in some cases succeeded) in moving into women's prisons.
And of course as we know, boys who identify as girls (which HAS to be self-ID as children cannot have a GRC) are allowed to join GirlGuiding while other boys are NOT allowed to join.
And men who decide to identify as women (no gatekeeping process at all) are allowed to take women's places on all-women shortlists for MP selection.

Doug you are right, I will rephrase. So far I have not seen any issues with it.

Dr I absolutely know that. My point is it is not self if per se that is the problem it is pushing the notion that trans woman = woman. Trans = trans and should be given equal not preferential treatment on that basis.

OP: I thin that your initial post made a lot of sense about the tone of the debate.
We disagree on the essentials of the debate though:
Trans people are far more vulnerable and increasingly the targets of:- Sexual assault, DV, Systemic bullying, Prejudice, Murder
Far more vulnerable than men of suffering these things at the hands of men. Alas not more vulnerable than women, and, if the national crime statistics are to be believed, as likely to be the perpetrators ON WOMEN as any man.
Expressing a belief different to yours is not trying to enforce that belief on others! Ye gads.
But the trans belief that a transwoman is a woman and warrants the protections currently afforded to women IS a different belief and IS being enforced.
If the trans lobby wanted me to stand up and fight for their safety, for a change in attitudes, for men to be held accountable for everyday misogyny against women and transwomen, for men to be held accountable for their violence against transwomen, for safe spaces for transwomen to be made available; I would be there holding a placard. But that hasn't been requested/demanded. What is being demanded is that women share their spaces with transwomen, that women move aside for transwomen. This happened because we can all sympathise with people who are troubled: whose thoughts/feelings are at odds with what they believe they should be. Women are expected to move aside because it's the nice thing to do. The transwomen aren't socialised in this way: they are happy to move into women only roles for their own validation. Happy to step up and face front. We are still trying to get equal representation in the political parties for goodness sake, and here we are being asked to give up the women's officer roles to those who are really not socialised as women, or they wouldn't be applying: there's the difficulty.