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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

700 replies

EyeRollChampion · 03/05/2018 10:54

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

OP posts:

TeenTimesTwo · 03/05/2018 14:51

PersianCat No offence at all.

Luckily I was brought up in the 70s when toys were toys, and girls could have short hair. And had parents who encouraged my interests.
I know there were lots of bad things about the 70s, but children weren't 'gendered' to the extent they are now.

DM once told me to let my work colleagues win at bowling because men didn't like it if women were better at stuff

WanderinWomb · 03/05/2018 14:57

Don't believe the hype. There are trans people on the FWR right now. Today and most days.

Do you mean "why doesn't everyone on FWR agree with me? " well that's a different question.

MillicentF · 03/05/2018 15:10

What are trans rights?

MillicentF · 03/05/2018 15:16

In fact, for me they whole debate can be summed up in a couple of questions I have never had a satisfactory answer to.

What are trans rights?
if not a member of the class or adult humans that produces eggs, what is a woman?

PersianCatLady · 03/05/2018 15:19

May I ask, do you sometimes feel that we are going backwards now??

vitara · 03/05/2018 15:24

@MillicentF

Not being discriminated against because of your transness.
What about post-menopausal women? Hysterectomy?

TeenTimesTwo · 03/05/2018 15:31

May I ask, do you sometimes feel that we are going backwards now?

I'm not sure backwards is right.

Many steps forward since the 70s, gay rights, openness towards discussing sexual abuse, pay equality (sort of), pregnancy rights, general acceptance of difference.

But the strong gendering these days. The fact that one of my DDs was told she 'looked like a boy' for having short hair in Reception. the sea of pink. The fact children are seemingly being told that they are the 'wrong' gender if they like science/engineering(girls) or cooking/fashion(boy) seems like a retrograde step to me.

What is wrong with saying we have biological men and women, and there are differences because of that. But also you can be a man who wears makeup and has long hair and wears pink or a women who has short hair and likes motor vehicles. Why all the labelling and angst? Live and let live. But you can't deny biology. That seem Orwellian to me.

CrazedZombie · 03/05/2018 15:34

What I see though is the wholesale dismissal of a person's right to identify themselves based on anything but their sex organs and to have others respect that right,

Before I looked into the trans debate I felt that woman was just a word and whoever wanted to call themselves that was free to go ahead and use it. (Live and let Live)
However having read more on the topic, it angers me that these people are labelling and defining me. They believe that they are Real Women (cos the rest of us are just fake 🙄) and call me cis and TERF for objecting to a label imposed by others. I am a woman and that's something that nobody can take from me.

Original poster

EyeRollChampion · 03/05/2018 15:36

I have tried (much to the chagrin of some posters) not to derail my own thread, but one has to question whether we are really fighting for equal rights if we want equal rights for everyone except those few people over there...

Trans people are far more vulnerable and increasingly the targets of:-

Sexual assault
DV
Systemic bullying
Prejudice
Murder

Is it unfeminist to acknowledge this? Of course not. Is it betraying women to give a crap and try to change that? Hell no!

This isn't the first country to roll out self ID. Is it a system that is generally abused? No. There are far easier ways to predate your chosen victims than legally changing your sexual identity! Can you imagine the repercussions of doing such a thing? It just doesn't make sense.

We all like to talk about so-called safe spaces. There are far more biologically female sex offenders in this country than there are trans women. Where are they peeing/getting changed?

I'm going to say something (yet again) that will get me flamed. Supporting self ID is GOOD for women. We've fought a long time for desegregation, so why are we holding on with a death grip to black and white gender binaries? Why can't gender be as diverse as the people who occupy those categories?

Sex organs do not make you an inherent danger. They may make you uncomfortable, granted. They may be a trigger for rape and DV victims. In an ideal world none of this would be an issue. But we can't punish a whole group of people for the actions of a few. You can't lump all men in with rapists and you can't lump all women in with being safe and unthreatening.

Everyone deserves to be and feel as safe as possible... NOT to the wholesale detriment of others.

Am I an idealist? Perhaps. Is that wrong? Depends on your opinion. But I don't shoot people down for wanting a discussion and THAT was the purpose of my OP.

OP posts:

DougFargo · 03/05/2018 15:38

but one has to question whether we are really fighting for equal rights if we want equal rights for everyone except those few people over there

Some "rights" clash with other "rights". Equal rights do not involve removing rights from another group to gain more for yourself, which is what you are advocating.
You are calling us transphobes by saying "hey you know what, you can't have the rights WE fought so hard to gain. You can't take those from us to have extra rights of your own".

Are you an idealist? No. You're a goady, unfeeling misogynist.

drwitch · 03/05/2018 15:40

self id simply means the right of being able to live and present as your preferred gender without fear of abuse, loss of pay and employment opportunities without having to go through complicated, invasive and possible dangerous medical procedures. I see no problem with that so long as biological sex based exemptions remain where they are shown to be important

mostdays · 03/05/2018 15:40

I don't know if 'not allowed' is the right phrase, but I know what you mean. Thankfully, I don't need anyone's permission to identify as a feminist, nor do I need anyone to approve my beliefs as sufficiently feminist. If some people think I am not a real feminist because my views on trans issues don't chime with theirs, that's their problem, not mine.

Apart from anything else, trans threads on here are bloody boring and repetitive. I do my level best to avoid them: on the rare occasions I decide to post in one, I post and then hide the thread. Which is what I am about to do right now.

PersianCatLady · 03/05/2018 15:40

There are far more biologically female sex offenders in this country than there are trans women
Do you have the figures for that or just a link?

DougFargo · 03/05/2018 15:41

Supporting self ID is GOOD for women

On what planet? Not ours anyway.

Original poster

EyeRollChampion · 03/05/2018 15:41

I don't believe that is denying women's rights. It's acknowledging that others have rights too and those are just as important. I still don't believe the two are mutually exclusive. Calling me unfeeling and a misogynist is goady and completely uncalled for.

OP posts:

MillicentF · 03/05/2018 15:41

"@MillicentF

Not being discriminated against because of your transness Yes, I can go with that. In what way are trans people discriminated against?
What about post-menopausal women? Hysterectomy They are still "adult humans ofvtge class that produces eggs" That's why the specific wording is used, rather than "adult humans who produce eggs"

Scabbersley · 03/05/2018 15:42

I don't mind about changing rooms actually, if they are unisex and there are cubicles.

I do mind about having to say that a natal male is a woman, and exactly the same as me (a natal born woman) in every respect. I mind that becoming law. I mind a lot. I really mind being called a cis woman.

I also don't accept that all trans people are more vulnerable than all women. I don't accept they are the 'lowest of the low' treated as 'the dregs of society' as I've seen posters say here. Shon Faye herself was a lawyer, white and privileged. I am sorry that some people suffer with gender dysphoria but I absolutely refute that it is down to me, or women generally, to make them feel better about themselves.

I'd love to see trans people campaigning for their own spaces. I would totally support that.

PersianCatLady · 03/05/2018 15:43

I see no problem with that so long as biological sex based exemptions remain where they are shown to be important
This is the whole reason why I don't agree with self ID.

Self ID means that for all intents and purposes a person with a penis who self IDs as such would legally be a woman and therefore the exemptions would not apply to them regardless of biology.

WanderinWomb · 03/05/2018 15:43

OP where are you getting your numbers? .

"all like to talk about so-called safe spaces. There are far more biologically female sex offenders in this country than there are trans women. Where are they peeing/getting changed? "

ThisIsTheFirstStep · 03/05/2018 15:45

If you are not tough enough to stand up for yourself, don’t get involved.

It’s very easy to cry bullying and ridiculing when it’s actually just debate. Strongly worded maybe, but still debate.

When people feel like their rights are being eroded, they will tend to get heated.

bringincrazyback · 03/05/2018 15:46

'I know there were lots of bad things about the 70s, but children weren't 'gendered' to the extent they are now.'

Do you not remember how many of the most popular toys were in the 70s were very explicitly gendered? Or, putting it another way: did you ever see girls playing with Action Men in the ads? (or boys playing with Tiny Tears, before someone else says it. lol)

ThisIsTheFirstStep · 03/05/2018 15:47

I’ve never seen anyone on here say that trans people don’t deserve to live in peace and to be accepted and to not be bullied. They deserve the same basic human rights as anyone and I believe most people on mn think the same.

But I don’t believe they are women and I won’t pretend I do. I won’t say ‘yeah you can have a space in a woman’s shelter’ or ‘ok I won’t talk about periods in case it hurts your feelings’ because that goes against my beliefs.

WanderinWomb · 03/05/2018 15:48

As far as the last numbers I recall there are more male sex offenders in prison than the entire female prison estate. ( also some in female prisons are male which effect the stats a little)

Scabbersley · 03/05/2018 15:48

There are far more biologically female sex offenders in this country than there are trans women

eh? How do you work that out?

MillicentF · 03/05/2018 15:49

"Trans people are far more vulnerable and increasingly the targets of:-

Sexual assault
DV
Systemic bullying
Prejudice
Murder"

Is this really true? For example - 2 women a week are murdered in the U.K by domestic violence-how do stats of the murder of trans women in the UK measure against that?

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