To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

[EyeRollChampion]

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

Are there a lot of trans men going into women's changing rooms flashing at kids then?

Does it have to be lots? Isn't one too many?
Not that its the trans men we are concerned about...(do you mean transwomen, or Tran identifying men though? transmen are or were actually women)

One more thing. I also can't get away from the nagging feeling that the aggressive trans agenda is driven by misogyny. I also can't get away from the feeling that the aggressive anti self ID position is driven misandry.

It feels like the two extremes of the argument are actually quite close in their motivations and drivers - and underneath neither is particularly pleasant.

I only meant that is what I see - that FWR regulars are erudite and articulate their arguments well, and are passionate

Yes, I absolutely agree with this, I was just musing really. And I can see from historic posts the FWR has long had the reputation for being a bit fierce. So whilst I don't think that in itself is a conspiracy, I do think it is sometimes used to explain why posters are deterred without acknowledging that actually sometimes they are wholesale set-upon!

Having a hard time being seen as a credible voice amongst so many well-practised regulars is a bit different to being ripped into because you disagree with something.

I've seen a good few people report incidences of the second. And quite often I see others dismiss it as the first.

Identity is crucial to psychological well-being and I don't think anyone should be denied that. Apparently lots of people do.

Not being bullied by misogynistic men and not having my feelings about males in my female spaces ignored, dismissed and ridiculed and my right to consent taken away is crucial to my psychological well being. Don't you care about that?

Everyone is allowed to identify as they believe.

NO ONE is allowed to force compliance with that belief on others.

We rightfully make an outcry if people are forced to convert to another religion in order to keep their safety, their lives or their livelihood.

But where it concerns male trans, women are being forced to convert to the cult of trans or they lose their safety, their livelihood or their lives and everyone is calling the women who protest "bigots" and "transphobes".

Are you people not seeing this?

Are there a lot of trans men going into women's changing rooms flashing at kids then?

My local swimming baths has mixed gender cubicle changing rooms and I have literally lost count of the amount of times men have been caught filming or photoing children in these. Not specifically trans people, but it just goes to show why women and children need their own secure spaces.

Identity is crucial to psychological well-being and I don't think anyone should be denied that. Apparently lots of people do

You think women should be denied that though. If a person with a beard and a penis is a woman, what the fuck am I then? It denies my identity as a woman.

There are many areas where feminism and trans beliefs could easily match, for example the idea that access to toys, books, films, clothes, careers and interests should not be pre-determined by our biological sex.

Also, I have yet to see a feminist suggest that people who identify as trans should have fewer human rights, you are far more likely to see a feminist defend those human rights than to see someone with political apathy doing so. In that regard feminists could be and sometimes are allies to trans identifying people.

The areas in which there are clashes are those that come down to biological differences so where they relate to removing clothing, being in positions of physical vulnerability, intimate care, menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, sport and sexuality.

If these things didn't matter they would never have been segregated in the first place so to keep the segregation in name but change the rules is like wearing a condom with holes in - it looks like it is making a difference but the reality is that it is pointless.

What I see though is the wholesale dismissal of a person's right to identify themselves based on anything but their sex organs and to have others respect that right

Perhaps we’re all just seeing what we want to see. Because I see women overwhelmingly saying that they respect people’s rights to their own identity, but do not respect any “right” to have that “self-identified gender” enshrined in law with the exact same definition as biological sex.

I am inclined to believe that self-ID is a positive move with the right kind of management. But that's not what this thread is about.

But that is what the “MN is anti-trans” thing is about, so to be it goes hand in hand. I would really love to hear why you’re inclined to think it’s a positive move “with the right kind of management” and what that might be.

I’ll look forward to that thread if you don’t want to discuss it on this one.

Being male and female is based on your sex organs, a person is either born XY- they will be Male, boy, and a man, XX-they will be Female, girl and then a woman. However you have those who indentify with the opposite sex that they were born with, and they are known as trans men and women. They cannot be real men or women, as they were not born Female, with XX or Male with XY in their genes. There has to be a distinction between those who were born Female, and those who are trans. Their issues and experiences will be totally different from biological Females.

I said in another thread, imagine a white people identified themselves as being black, and put dark make up on their skin, and tried to get on board with black issues and and racism. It would be considered highly offensive and ludricous as they were not born black. They are white, and will always have white skin, it is in their genetics. They would not have a clue of the issues that black people face, the oppression, racism and black history of slavery. Why is it ok, for another vulnerable group (Females) to have to suck it up, if they challenge it, they are deemed to be transphobic. That is what Feminists I feel have issue with.

NObody is against trans rights or the freedom of people to choose who they want to be, but when Transactivism means that women's rights and voices become minimised or shoved to the side, then we have a problem. Trans rights are different to women's rights, and they need their own platform.

J"I'd like to think the advancement of women everywhere shouldn't only be debated by those with the education, the class background and the personality (i.e. resilience) to clear the hurdle of entry"

So what do you suggest? Threads where women who have read any books are not allowed to post?

YAN(completely)U.
I'm a feminist too. I do have concerns about self-ID and potential erosion of women's rights and safety. I have concerns about privacy, modesty, and just having the right to request a female medic in a time of need.
I think that we need to talk. Transpeople are a marginalized group too, so naturally their focus will be on trans issues. Discourse is fundamental so we all stop banging heads.
We have had some respected, long standing transpeople join MN to talk with us. Almost all of them have been deliberately misgendered (even when they have asked nicely to be described by their preferred gender), shot down when they were here to discuss, not as a target, and the thread where the noted Trans-rights lawyer who had been involved in the GRA but was not advocating removing gatekeeping from self-ID came to talk with us was frankly embarrassing. Anyone trying to engage was pushed out of the thread by people essentially chanting 'This is all the fault of you and your cronies'. 'I see you' over and over (presumably doing the weird thing with fingers from own eyes to recipients) etc etc. Its hardly surprising he started going on about scooter safety in Asia and buggered off.
Using people's preferred titles/genders in civilised conversation is abusive to women? Bollocks. Just be civil.

OP: you say that you feel that you can't be a feminist on MN unless you are against trans rights. I'm starting to feel that I can't share gender critical thoughts because all the shouting and anti-trans rudeness makes me feel as if my own thoughts are in line with them.
It's like worrying about the jobs market after they build a new estate and then finding out the only councillor who shares your concern is in the BNP.

*RatRolyPoly When I was hiding from the MN feminism boards I would only join in on trans threads on AIBU... so apparently AIBU's only number 2 in the "robust" rankings these days!

I'm thinking of going into hiding myself

Myse1f yes I have those concerns too. I don't wish to silence or dismiss them. I am inclined to believe that it's not totally impossible to find real life solutions that take them into consideration. No, I don't have all the answers and never claimed to.

Using people's preferred titles/genders in civilised conversation is abusive to women? Bollocks. Just be civil.

This ^^

OP claims posters are 'anti trans'

I think OP is similarly
Anti -women's rights
Anti logic
Anti science
Anti biology
Anti reality
Anti fairness
Anti free speech
Anti debate

it doesn't help to use such rhetoric though.
It doesn't aid discussion and it doesn't improve anything.

So instead I'll say it is morally wrong for a society to endorse people 'identifying' as something they objectively are not.
That is simply endorsement of falsehoods.

Do I object to male people creating a category for themselves which truthfully represents their actual biological sex and also encompasses whatever aspects of their personalities they want recognised? Sure.
Do I object to them conflating this category with the group of people born with XX chromosomes and ovaries by using the exact word for that biological state? Yep.

No one should be allowing this.
It isn't an accident that 'woman' was the word chosen by male people here. Unlike claims to the contrary, this has always been a movement to put apples and oranges in the same basket by a renaming exercise.

Self identification has become synonymous with rejection of reality. If you have to 'self identify' as a thing and can offer no objective evidence for how you meet the criteria, you aren't that thing.

Every other example of 'self identification' I can thing of is refutable.

I identify as is not the same as I am. More often than not it objectively can be shown to be "I am NOT".

I am curious as to what people mean when they say "trans rights." To me, this means the right to work free from discrimination, the right to housing free from discrimination, the right to public accommodations free from discrimination.

I am in favor of these things (except where public accommodations intersect with places where women have an expectation of privacy due to nudity, like a locker room).

What else is meant by "trans rights"?

Using people's preferred titles/genders in civilised conversation is abusive to women?

No, it isn't at all - but there's a lot of complaining around this issue and nobody is linking it AT ALL to the number of times women get called "sir" by utility companies/banks/employers or the times that "Ms" is not available as a choice or on telling someone that's your title over the phone, you are told "oh is that Mrs or Miss". Nor to the times that people communicate with only the female parent about a child, or assume that the parent they are writing to is "mum".

I think that people who are bothered by this need to remember that women have been here a lot longer facing the same issues.
You make a fuss on our behalf and we might be prepared to make a bigger fuss on your behalf. Until then, my policy is be polite but let other people make their own fuss.

^No one should be allowing this.
It isn't an accident that 'woman' was the word chosen by male people here. Unlike claims to the contrary, this has always been a movement to put apples and oranges in the same basket by a renaming exercise.^

Yes, exactly this. Great post Barracker.

Barrackerbarmer ooh are we playing the random accusations game? Fun!

I think you are:-

Anti OP
Anti semitic
Anti soap
Anti teapots
Anti ducks
Antidisestablishmentaerian
Anti licking gooseberry jam off the elbows of elderly Persian aristocrats
Anti blancmange

Why not?

I have the problem of squaring the two because my feminism is based on viewpoint that oppression of women is purely biological and little to do with gender. A women raped wearing a bikini to a woman raped in a burka were raped because of biology no amount of identifying can stop. I am pro human rights for anyone but biology matters. History tells us hard won rights can be easily taken away.

Barrackerbarmer ooh are we playing the random accusations game? Fun!

Not at all "random". Bang on the nail.

The thing is OP. You haven't any answers yet. So despite the whole of the internet open to you, you seem to not be able to come up with any counter arguments to the issues raised on this and other threads here on MN.

So you believe in trans rights which most people also here agree with. You apparently think that also means you should be pro self id. But you seem to have no logic behind it. If you cannot provide or find counter arguments, it makes debating somewhat hard.

Debate is not 'because I say so' or 'because that's how I feel'.
It is picking up the arguments that have been given re women's need for single sex spaces, not being able to redefine biology etc, and engaging with them.

I'm a woman. Biological fact.
I have never given birth, I wear trousers, I like maths and engineering and lego. I don't wear makeup. I have no idea whether I 'feel' the same as my female friends. But we are all women.

If a woman isn't biological, then I have no idea what a woman is.

In spaces where I am vulnerable, half clothed, or asleep, I want to be in spaces with people who are like me biologically. Not those who on average are way stronger or who can rape me. I want to have spaces to talk about things that only happen to biological women, like smear tests. Why should that be an issue? Why should women be having to defend/discuss this is a need?

If a woman isn't biological, then I have no idea what a woman is
Exactly.

I am going to try and word the next bit the best I can but it is hard so please don't jump on me for trying.

With the greatest respect @TeenTimesTwo, you have stated that you like a lot of things that are considered by some to be masculine. attributes.

Does that mean that you (and me) are now less female than self ID females because they display more traditionally feminine attributes?

Look at some of the photos of LM.

Is LM more of a woman than me because LM wears pink and lipstick but right now I am wearing trousers and no lipstick??

What I really struggle with in terms of some self ID females like LM and Danielle Muscato is that they seem to treat being female as some kind of parody, pretty dresses, make-up, heels but they choose to remain male physically.

I hope that this makes sense and isn't offensive as it is not intended to be, it just really bends my brain.

No problem at all with people dressing how they want and abhore the idea anyone should be descriminated agaist for any reason but At the end of the day you/TRA's are trying to legitimise what used to be a sexual crime and know to lead to more serious offending - ie Flashing. - ie its ok for somone with a cock to show it in a changing room full of women and children - as long as they feel like a woman.

MN feminism has been taken over by very extreme, obsessed, types. Like the alt-right of feminism. Vile.

Well said