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Original poster

To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

700 replies

EyeRollChampion · 03/05/2018 10:54

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

OP posts:
SmileEachDay · 05/05/2018 21:21

Gorgon

Well I’m going to hand back my Feminist Club card on Tuesday morning. I hope you’ll be doing the same.

LVXiii · 05/05/2018 21:21

Idontdowindows - I have no idea what that means. I think trans inclusion absolutely involves also respecting transmasculine identity.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 05/05/2018 21:25

post on the feminism boards and the few times I've gone there it's seemed like a single issue echo chamber.

Funnily enough there are people on another thread who are irritated by the fact that not all feminists think the same thing

I never understand this...loads of posters but the accusations of hypocrisy when its two completely different posters is just weird!!

Not you LVX, i know thats not what you are saying

Idontdowindows · 05/05/2018 21:25

Yeah, but women who are inclusive of transmen are always deemed to be transphobic and trans-exclusionary, so.... shrug

MaisyPops · 05/05/2018 21:28

Not just trans rights to be honest.

If you have concerns about self ID but also think deliberately calling a transwoman by their male name is plain dickish then you're also not feminist enough.

There's one way to be on trans threads (regardless of your personal views on the issues) : angry, angry, angry and generally disparaging to anyone who doesn't jump on board with angry.

I've come to the conclusion that the entire trans debate is really being fought by militant angry feminists and militany radical TRAs and neither group seem to have any time for any view other than their own.

Meanwhile there's feminist women and transwomen who are more than happy to debate and discuss and explore how to balance rights. They just never get heard.

SmileEachDay · 05/05/2018 21:31

I’m not sure if that’s totally true Maisy - I’ve seen loads of really informed, nuanced debate on here.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 05/05/2018 21:38

If you have concerns about self ID but also think deliberately calling a transwoman by their male name is plain dickish then you're also not feminist enough

Thats not true at all

There's one way to be on trans threads (regardless of your personal views on the issues) : angry, angry, angry and generally disparaging to anyone who doesn't jump on board with angry.

Or this

Wisdens · 05/05/2018 21:42

I've come to the conclusion that the entire trans debate is really being fought by militant angry feminists and militany radical TRAs and neither group seem to have any time for any view other than their own.

I’ve said earlier in the thread that I feel uncomfortable that one side of the argument seems driven by misogynists and the other by misandrists. Both two sides of the same coin really.

SmileEachDay · 05/05/2018 21:47

Wisden
I’m wondering which posts have led you to this conclusion?

Wisdens · 05/05/2018 21:57

Smile, posts? Whole threads.....

MaisyPops · 05/05/2018 21:58

6 months back I would have agreed with you rufus and smile. Now not so much. I think there has been a shift in terms of tone and echo chamberness on some debates.

Non trans feminist debates are still very much interesting and engaging but the trans ones too often are just more of the same.

There were some great ones a few weeks back where people were debating the impact of things like 'peak trans' and the combination of trans and TRA in debate. It was a great debate and there were loads of thoughtf points aimed at moving the issues forward. Sadly, (for me at least) most threads on such an important issue seem very much more of the same angry approach.

GorgonLondon · 05/05/2018 22:02

SmileEachDay
Gorgon Well I’m going to hand back my Feminist Club card on Tuesday morning. I hope you’ll be doing the same.

Oh absolutely. Leggere thinks we don't hear enough from men, and someone else whose username I CBA to check think we're too angry, so oops, my bad.

Naughty Gorgon, very naughty for not giving men more space and time (because we never hear any male opinions) and even more naughty for getting cross.

I'll go back into the corner now, bat my eyelashes and shut up like a good girl.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 05/05/2018 22:04

Now not so much. I think there has been a shift in terms of tone

Would not disagree with this at all

People are angry, really angry

SmileEachDay · 05/05/2018 22:04

Which ones, Wisden?

I think there is polarisation, Maisy - and a lot of frustration- but in general I see a lot of women being told they are “militant” for maintaining a position that ties “woman” to biology and which prioritises females within feminism.

ReluctantCamper · 05/05/2018 22:28

I think it is very shocking to hear women say a flat out 'no' to men. It makes people very uncomfortable. It makes me very uncomfortable.

doesn't mean it's not right though.

IronMansIronButt · 05/05/2018 22:32

Trans inclusive feminism is definitely not welcome on MN

Depends what you mean by trans inclusive, doesn't it?

noeffingidea · 05/05/2018 22:34

I agree that attitudes are hardening. I think thats a response to the attempts to close the discussion down, the attempts at censorship, the protests at meetings, and and the fact that male dominated forums are not being attacked in the same way. This has been noted in the mainstream press, so it isn't just people on mumsnet being paranoid. I'm afraid it seems rather sinister to me, and I have to ask myself why it's happening.

BarrackerBarmer · 05/05/2018 22:36

Every feminist I know seems happy to include transmen in feminism/female spaces/female healthcare etc.

This isn't exclusion of everyone 'trans'.

It's women saying no to men declaring themselves the same as women.

GorgonLondon · 05/05/2018 22:40

noeffingidea Good article here in the Morning Star (of all places!) about the attacks on women trying to meet
morningstaronline.co.uk/article/women-have-every-right-discuss-changes-law-could-affect-them

SmileEachDay · 06/05/2018 07:19

One of the reasons attitudes seem “hard” is because liberal feminist are inclined to look after minority groups, to be intersectional. This is A Good Thing - it means feminists have been st the forefront of supporting rights for WOC and the LGB community (although arguably the L has always been rather overlooked in that particular battle)

But now we are in a place that requires we expand intersectional feminism to include biological men.

So some women are saying no. It actually isn’t harsh, or particularly ground breaking. It’s just that feminism must centre women.

Any and all women.

Mistigri · 06/05/2018 07:28

I've come to the conclusion that the entire trans debate is really being fought by militant angry feminists and militany radical TRAs and neither group seem to have any time for any view other than their own.

Yes - this. Militants trans activists come over as spoilt teenagers with anger-management problems, but if you stray into a mumsnet feminist thread you could be forgiven for thinking you'd wandered into an alt-right echo chamber. I find both sides incredibly unsympathetic.

The whole thing alienates feminists who think there is room for more nuance and less anger.

ReliefOfChaos · 06/05/2018 07:33

It's the clickbait model of journalism. The more offensive and extreme your views are these days the more likely you are to be given a megaphone in the press. Nuance is BORING.

MaisyPops · 06/05/2018 08:31

SmileEachDay
Radical TRAs will tell anyone who doesn't deny biology they are militant bigots. Radical TRAs seem to want to control debate and target feminists or anyone who challenges their ideology.

I think Mistigri sums up my thoughts pretty well.
The whole thing alienates feminists who think there is room for more nuance and less anger.

There has to be a way forward where rights are balanced (a bit like religion vs homosexuality) where trans rights are protected but without eroding women's rights. There's a chance of getting to that point with more middle ground discussion but the way the debate is going, that seems increasingly more unlikely.

SmileEachDay · 06/05/2018 08:37

Maisy as I said upthread, I think there is polarisation.

Which rights do trans identifying people do not currently have? I think that’s a fairly sensible starting point.

Idontdowindows · 06/05/2018 08:40

There has to be a way forward where rights are balanced (a bit like religion vs homosexuality) where trans rights are protected but without eroding women's rights.

Many women have already proposed that a third safe space (in all aspects of life, so intimate safe space, sports, education etc.) is created for trans people, just like women have created safe space away from men for themselves. Many of us have even said we'll help fight for funding and support this wholeheartedly.

But TRAs have rejected that outright. They want women's space. They want to wholesale colonise us That is why we're angry.