To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

[EyeRollChampion]

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

@jellyfrizz @maplesap1

"In 2016, the UK Forced Marriage Unit’s helpline dealt with 1,428 cases of forced marriage; 15% involved children aged 16 and under and 11% involved 16-17 year olds."

So you've no idea how many are actually under 16 then?

Err yes. It's 15% of 1,428 which is 214 - like I said earlier.

I think the comprehension issue relates to the use of the categories "16 and under" (to include 16 year olds) and "16-17 year olds". Maybe they've double counted the 16 year olds in each category or maybe the first category should read "under 16s" only?

The Royal Society for the prevention of accidents is not half the population of the planet. Of course if you would prefer that we all just look out for our own, I believe the current president of the United States will be to your liking.

ReliefOfChaos does gender legislation really have to be "comically quaint", do women really have to face no issues whatsoever before they will consider looking outwards at other groups who are still struggling?

Not at all. As I and many others have said numerous times on this thread and others we are not against trans people enjoying full human rights and freedoms and campaigning against any situation where these are withheld. Just saying that you can't co-opt women's spaces, facilities and definitions, and that trans rights do not include the right to make other people believe stuff that is contra-indicated by facts.

A vast number of people you now call terfs, myself included, were once 100% enthusiastically supportive of the trans community until it became clear that some TRAs were actively trying to erase important protections for women, including the very definitions of woman that make such protection possible.

To follow on from an analogy above - there is nothing stopping anyone from being an enthusiastic supporter of both a donkey sanctuary and a campaign to save the rhinos, whilst still believing that it would be wrong for the donkey sanctuary to spend its time and resources on rhinos, or vice versa.

Ok yes, I see how that was unclear. This is much clearer from the Forced Marriage Unit stats:

"Where the age was known, 15% of cases involved victims below 16 years of age, and 26% involved under-18 year olds."

(assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/597869/Forced_Marriage_Unit_statistics-_2016.pdf link)

Remember this is FORCED marriage, not two teenagers in love deciding to get married and even the 16-17 year olds are still 'child brides' which maple asserted did not happen in the UK.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/597869/Forced_Marriage_Unit_statistics-_2016.pdf

2nd link attempt.

I realise I'm one of the unsympathetic penis owners

Lol what a shocker!

@Ereshkigal

I've noticed I tend to be referred to as he or she depending on whether the poster agrees with what I'm saying.

Of course if you would prefer that we all just look out for our own, I believe the current president of the United States will be to your liking.

Ok given that you're so informed about these issues, why don't trans identified males who claim to be women look out for women?

Like this person for example?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvia_Rivera

I've noticed I tend to be referred to as he or she depending on whether the poster agrees with what I'm saying.

Well you are on a majority female, feminist leaning website, and antifeminists tend to come across as male, as it's kind of a turkey/xmas scenario.

Come on Eresh, it's because women should be nice.

You know this one!

I think that last comment goes right to the heart of the thread Eresh. I'm not antifeminist. At all. But many people would tell me I am.

Ray Rivera didn't identify as transgender. He was a gay male and a drag queen.

Jesus wept the rewriting of history ....

"Rivera's gender identity was complex and varied throughout her life.[1][3] In 1971 she spoke of herself as a "half sister"[34] In her essay "Transvestites: Your Half Sisters and Half Brothers of the Revolution" she specifically claims her use of the word "transvestite" as only applying to the gay community: "Transvestites are homosexual men and women who dress in clothes of the opposite sex."[34]

In interviews and writings in her later years, notably her 1995 interview with Randy Wicker and her 2002 essay, "Queens In Exile, The Forgotten Ones," she expressed a fluid take on gender, referring to herself alternately as a gay man,[4] a gay girl,[3] a drag queen/street queen,[1][6][7] and again as a gay man,[1] embodying all of these experiences and seeing none of these identities as excluding the others.[1] She writes of having considered gender reassignment surgery earlier in life, but of ultimately choosing to reject it, only taking hormones near the end of her life.[1]"

I'm not antifeminist. At all. But many people would tell me I am

Errm

Yes, Ray Rivera was a gay man. He always said he was a gay man.

I find it disrespectful actually to refer to him as she.

I'm just waiting for the "Stonewall was started by a transwoman" and "Stormé was a transman" people to show up now.

I think that last comment goes right to the heart of the thread Eresh.

Doesn't it?

Just saw this in the Guardian.

"An identity politics that is not principally concerned with dismantling all forms of inequality quickly devolves into a never-ending game of oneupmanship where self-satisfaction is all that’s won."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/05/identity-politics-veered-ideals-kimberly-foster

I would advise people not to sign the petition, without first researching and also speaking to real feminists. In my opinion, the mn posters are not true feminists. I've spoken with a fair few over the years, attended meetings and they're nothing like this.

Dear all,

On the (admittedly very tiny) off-chance that anyone was given pause for thought by leggere 's damning indictment of us all as 'not real feminists', a very quick AS of this poster turned up posts such as :

1. leggere Sun 29-Apr-18 09:59:15 And the ridiculous term mansplaining whenever a man tries to speak. I'ts boring and I for one, would like to hear a male perspective now and again.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3233351-Annoying-things-other-posters-do?pg=4

2. leggere Mon 23-Apr-18 21:34:12 Just as I thought! No one on MN can say one nice thing about men!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a3229668-My-hero#77328652

There are other examples, but this poster's main purpose on this site seems to be to praise men and condemn other women for being feminists.

As you were, sisters...

I agree. I wish there was conversation about something else on those boards. Am so tired of reading about it. The way they go on about it has completely turned me off listening at all, even though I initially thought some of the points and concerns had some validity (eg the effect on abused or women who have experienced rape having trans women in women's changing rooms). I find some of the anti-trans rhetoric pretty disgusting actually, reminds me of how people used to talk about homosexuals. I also find the way they are personally abusive and bullying to anyone who dares to express another opinion. Apparently not everyone is welcome on the feminism boards!

So, reading this thread, I think the OP is definitely not being U. Trans inclusive feminism is definitely not welcome on MN.

Whether that's right or wrong is a different question, but I definitely wouldn't feel able to post on the feminism boards and the few times I've gone there it's seemed like a single issue echo chamber.

Funny how being inclusive of transmen never counts as being inclusive of trans.

Yes, Minimum - it seems to be the dominant focus