To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

[EyeRollChampion]

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

Which rights do trans identifying people do not currently have?

I have seen this question asked frequently, but never answered.

It would be extremely helpful if people throwing around accusations like You're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights could address this question.

smile
Personally, I have an issue with lots of the TRA agenda - telling women how to be women, that lesbians must sleep with them etc. I dislike the active rewriting of language to deny biology.

I have become quite uncomfortable with the increasing lack of distinction beyween TRAs and trans people. I do think there needs to be more support put in place for trans mental health, more neutral support for teens who experience gender dysphoria, refuges for transwomen because they are more likely to be attacked. There needs to be clarification in the debate over people having an issue with trans vs TRAs (in my opinion). In my opinion, the average trans person just wants to live their lives and I think society could be more accomodating (e.g. unisex facilities alongside mens ans womens)
Of course TRAs don't want a 'include and support' model because they are obsessed with shutting down women's spaces, but that's an issue with radical TRAs, not trans people as a group. I do feel there is a distinction there which needs to be maintained.

“Which rights do trans identifying people do not currently have?

I have seen this question asked frequently, but never answered.“

Yes, i’d like to know this too. It’s one of the two massive elephants in the room. The q other being “How do you define woman and man in a way that does not involve stereotypes apart from adult human being of the class that produces eggs/sperm?^

Really sensible post Maisy, but I think the problem is that TRAs regard any nuance as contravening #NoDebate.

So more neutral support for teens who experience gender dysphoria, would be regarded as transphobic. Anything other than immediate affirmation is met with howls of outrage. Give in to that attitude (as we seem to be at the moment) you've got thousands of children on the road to sterilisation, surgery and so on.

And I would also ask WHY would you define woman / man other than by their reproductive capabilities.

There are good reasons to be able to distinguish between someone with a prostate and someone with a womb.

I don't understand why we need to bend language to distinguish between someone who is sensitive and likes to wear nail varnish , and someone who prefers to drink beer in pint glasses and interrupt women when they're talking .

I do think there needs to be more support put in place for trans mental health, more neutral support for teens who experience gender dysphoria, refuges for transwomen because they are more likely to be attacked. There needs to be clarification in the debate over people having an issue with trans vs TRAs (in my opinion). In my opinion, the average trans person just wants to live their lives and I think society could be more accomodating (e.g. unisex facilities alongside mens ans womens)

All of which makes you a massive TERF Maisie.

One of the things I think is most dangerous about the proposed self ID changes is the complete separation of trans identification and mental health. It’s bonkers. And very, very dangerous for young people.

And neutral support is incredibly hard to access- many counselling services won’t take anything other than an affirmative route - so little exploration of the YP as a “whole”.

There is some indication this is changing a bit - Tavistock clinicians, for example, expressing concern about the hung go approach is pretty powerful.

Okay, let me google that for you. First right would be the removal of the requirement to have lives for two years as a woman before obtaining a gender recognition certificate. This is important because this period of transitioning is the most dangerous to women.

In effect this will mean no change, since most if not all organisations and charity already recognise this and include it in their guidelines when giving access to support services. But it does grant it as a right, rather than best practise.

So it does appear than in opposing self-ID you are seeking to take away rights.

I have become increasingly uncomfortable with the increasing kack of distinction between TRAs and transpeople
Well that's always a problem when there's an extremist element attatched to any group. See Isis/ the Muslim community. How does the average Muslim disassociate themselves from the extremist element of Islam? I don't think they can rely on people's common sense and tolerance for ever because that tends to get whittled away bit by bit, with every violent incident. People don't go on saying 'it's only a minority' for ever. Sooner or later people have got to stand up and say 'not in my name'. It's interesting that some transpeople have started to do that now.

err, ReliefOfChaos, do you believe that disabled people should have a right to disability living allowance without proving why they should be entitled to it?

Because that is a direct corollary of what you are saying.

“This is important because this period of transitioning is the most dangerous to women.”

Can you say some more about this?

The anti-trans hysteria on here is beyond the pale now.

I honestly wonder if frothing anti-trans posters actually know any trans people. It's like my idiot rural relatives that never encountered people of colour and regurgitated all the hysteria and racist shit they read in the Daily Mail.

The anti-trans have concocted this predatory fetishistic bogey monster to falsely represent trans women and they scour news articles from across the globe to create the impression that this bogey monster is real and that the abuses are widespread and she's coming to a changing room near you. FFS.
Just come and meet my friend Mary. She transitioned 35 years ago, happily married for 30 years, just retired from the NHS and knits hats for premature babies.

This trans hysteria is so resonant of homophobia - the biological essentialists and the "You can't do that because it is unnatural" brigade dressing up their bigotry as profound feminist thought.
I see the same crass abuses that have been regularly levelled at gay men in particular. The determined attempts by some anti-trans women to conflate transgenderism with paedophilia for one.

I have many many issues with the legal ramifications of the GRA/self ID clusterfuck. Then there is the criminal exploitation of vulnerable people by the cosmetic surgery industry. And I have great concerns about under18s being forced into making life altering choices. The fringe aggression of the TRAs is despicable.
But ... women repeatedly demanding that everyone must toe the biological line and denying transpeople's right to exist by continually ranting about chromosomes is transphobic. Stupid too because do they honestly think that transpeople are going to just shuttup and disappear?

When you've got lefty feminists suddenly praising the likes of Julia Hartley Brewer (truly NO friend to women) as a feminist icon because she is parroting back the same anti-trans crap, and suggestions that anti trans feminists should unite with the far right at a free speech rally then it is clear they've reached a tipping point.

“I honestly wonder if frothing anti-trans posters actually know any trans people. It's like my idiot rural relatives that never encountered people of colour and regurgitated all the hysteria and racist shit they read in the Daily Mail”

I know trans people and I don’t froth and I am not anti trans. Will you answer my questions?

Incidentally, several things you say in your post are transphobic.

Okay, once again let me do some basic research for you. Here's Rape Crisis Scotland's information on the subject... from 2012 note. This one contains the claim that the transition period is the most dangerous as part of it's justification for not requiring a GRC.

www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/resources/single-sex-service-trans-guidance.pdf

The anti-trans have concocted this predatory fetishistic bogey monster to falsely represent trans women

Despite the fact you’re using the concoction of a stereotypical ranty racist Daily Mail reader in your post...

continually ranting about chromosomes is transphobic

Someone alert the scientific community!

Seriously tibetantripehound, I think it is quite reasonable to say 'when I say women, I mean people of the reproductive class that produces eggs and is capable of gestating young, and that's what the people who wrote most of our laws meant too'

So if we're going to change that definition then it's reasonable to want to review same sex provision, because it now becomes mixed sex.

And if it was important enough to make it single sex at the time, why is it OK to be mixed sex now.

That's not bigoted, and frankly I'm getting really tired of that accusation.

"and suggestions that anti trans feminists should unite with the far right at a free speech rally then it is clear they've reached a tipping point."

You'd think if you're allies on an issue are Donald Trump, Roosh V, and Katie Hopkins and those lined up against you are Rape Crisis Scotland, the Woman's Equality Party, Stonewall, The Green Party, Labour Party and SNP you might have a bit of a Mitchell and Webb looking at your hats and saying "Are we the bad guys here?"

Relief

How does having self identification stop trans identifying being in danger?

Aren’t we better focussing attention on highlighting what utter bullshit “gender” is? That would reduce the need for people to “trans”.

Admittedly I've skimmed parts of the thread, but most of the frothing and frankly offensive accusations I've seen on this thread have come from people seeking to demonise regular users of the FWR board.

You'd think if you're allies on an issue are Donald Trump, Roosh V, and Katie Hopkins

the Iranian regime are just A-OK with trans ideaology

bad, strawman argument

try again

Seriously smile, it was bad enough I had to find the link for you. I'm not going to read it for you as well.

First right would be the removal of the requirement to have lives for two years as a woman before obtaining a gender recognition certificate.

That's not a right. Do you even know what "rights" are?

There's a thread on the FWR currently where people are just stating their positions on this issue. No arguing or attempting to change anyone's mind, no frothing or personal attacks. Anyone can read it or post on it. Some posters are more 'hardline' than the position I hold, but there doesn't seem to be too much extremism.

yes ReliefOfChaos, I'm still waiting for an answer on the 'right' of disabled people to be immediately eligible for DLA (or whatever the fuck it's called now).

Getting no questions asked support from the state is a right, right?

ReluctantCamper
Maybe TRAs would have a huge issue with my view, but trans friends of mine (MtF) are quite sympathetic to many concerns regarding TRAs.

It's things like this however that turn me off the debate: This is important because this period of transitioning is the most dangerous to women. It goes away from challenging a radical TRA agenda towards making sweeping statements about transpeople.

ranting about chromosomes is transphobic. Stupid too because do they honestly think that transpeople are going to just shuttup and disappear?
Believing in biological sex is not transphobic, nor is it expecting trans people to disappear.
I don't believe you can change biological sex. I support the right of trans people to exist and think society can do more to accommodate gender non conformity.

Maisy

I believe the chap who said this This is important because this period of transitioning is the most dangerous to women, was using it as evidence to support self ID. Although I think he's mainly here to yank our chains.

society can do more to accommodate gender non conformity

Absolutely. And one really good way to do this is to accept that you don't have to pretend you've changed sex if you don't want to confirm to gender stereotypes.