To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

[EyeRollChampion]

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

@merrymouse

1) Which behaviours do you think are natural in women?

Do you mean nature vs nurture or do you mean what behaviours do I think are more typical in women for whatever reason?

I think women are naturally less adversarial.

I think they tend to see nuance in argument.

I think they're more sympathetic.

I think they are more risk adverse.

I think they demonstrate 'nesting behaviors'.

I think they are more likely to shy away from physical confrontation.

I think they are more likely to consider consequences before actions rather than acting on impulse.

2) Why would you think that these behaviours are not also natural when they are observed in men?

Because if you compare one woman and one man, the woman may not have ovaries. She may not simply have XX chromosomes. She may be taller and heavier than the man, have bigger feet and have hairier arms. She may have ADD, be colourblind and better at throwing and running.

However, when you look at large numbers there are clear differences. The argument is not whether there are differences between the sexes but whether they're learnt or innate or, to put it more appropriately, where on this continuum the influence lies.

I have little time for radical morons on either side of the debate.

3) Why would the absence of these behaviours lead you to conclude that somebody is a man?

Who said it would?

However, if you ask me about the absence or presentness (?) of these behaviours for 10,000 people, I'd be right a lot of the time.

3) What difference does behaviour make anyway? Why do you need to classify people into 2 groups according to your assumptions about their behaviour?

I don't. I don't feel the need to classify anyone.

Do you feel the need to belong to a specific class? I like to judge each person on their merits whilst acknowledging biological and psychological trends.

I think the need for classification is only important as an explanation for observed trends as a rebuttal to unfairness. Things like gender pay gap or attainment in different fields or why black people don't do well in aquatics or why they do very well in long distance and sprint running (but less so in middle distance) or why white people are underrepresented in basketball or why male vets are few and far between etc.

Do you feel the need to belong to a specific class

No, but I do feel the need to be recognised as belonging to the sex class I am, as it influences how I am treated, what medical treatment I require and many other things.

It also, conversely, gives me the basis on which I am oppressed as a human female and the reasons we still need to fight for protection, especially from human males.

I think the need for classification is only important as an explanation for observed trends as a rebuttal to unfairness

Yes. That would be the point. Women as a biological sex class.

I am still hoping for a definition of woman and man that is not based on stereotypes. The only one so far is "adult human of the class that produces eggs/sperm".

I wouldn't hold your breath.

gameNight- do you have a view on the NUS loo labelling thing? To summarise-they have loos for men and gender neutral. No women's.

ReliefOfChaos That's a false distinction. Does it really matter if you're oppressed because of your gender, class or race? Are we playing oppression top trumps?

You have completely missed the point. This isn't one-upmamship and no one is denying that trans people are oppressed and discriminated against, and should not be. There certainly should and can be proportionate facilities, accommodations, adjustments and opportunities for trans people to combat the disadvantages they face. We are just saying it is not reasonable to muscle in and appropriate the facilities, accommodations, adjustments and opportunities which have been set up for women.

In the UK, a woman who is of Asian origin can access the facilities, accommodations, adjustments and opportunities for women AND the facilities, accommodations, adjustments and opportunities for ethnic minorities. An Asian man can access the latter not the former. A white woman can access the former not the latter.

It would be reasonable to have additional facilities, accommodations, adjustments and opportunities for Asian women as this is an intersection of disadvantages.

It would not be reasonable to have facilities, accommodations, adjustments and opportunities for white women only, excluding Asian women. That is the corresponding analogy to your example of women being excluded from trades unions.

@Idontdowindows

You think being a woman should mean you're treated differently? I assume only when it benefits you and not otherwise.

I don't classify people by race or sexuality but this should have a bearing on medical interventions necessary and even deciding at rick groups (diabetes and Islanders or gayt men and AIDs, for example).

"I am oppressed as a human female and the reasons we still need to fight for protection, especially from human males"

You aren't oppressed. You don't need to fight for protection but if it gives you a little boost every day to see yourself as some kind of fighter against the masses then go ahead.

Good on you, you

@MillicentF

Yes.

Mostly DILLIGAF but makes far more sense to use the bathrooms with stalls as more 'open' than those with urinals.

When I'm in a toilet I couldn't care less who's having a pee on the other side of the wall or if they can hear me. Those who do have serious issues; not with society but personal ones.

You think being a woman should mean you're treated differently?

A prostate exam isn't going to be much use to me, is it?

You aren't oppressed.

Ah, you're the MRA and I claim my 5 pounds.

"A prostate exam isn't going to be much use to me, is it?"

I have no idea. Assuming you're a woman it probably won't but you said treated differently as distinct to medical issues. It's only a scroll away to see what you wrote!

One day I'll have a useful explanation of why MRA and TRA are insults.

I'm not the MRA but I don't align my views with an idiot simply because we both have vaginas, if that's what you mean.

I know feminist is seen as an insult by a majority but it's somehow different

Eyeroll, you're absolutely right. If you go fem threads you have to agree. It's their way or the highway. A good example of this is a thread at the moment where they attack a man. Apparently he didn't introduce himself properly? It's like the mafia. Can't do links but the thread is headed "Hello all, I'm a man. Am I welcome". Have a look, it's exactly what you're talking about.

Ah, you're the MRA and I claim my 5 pounds.

A FEMRA it seems.

I don't classify people by race or sexuality

#alllivesmatter

@Ereshkigal

"I don't align my views with an idiot simply because we both have vaginas"

Sorry eyeroll, got that a bit wrong. It's "Hello all, man here. Am I welcome to talk". No, unfortunately he wasn't.

@leggere

That thread (just googled and found it) is a sad insight into many of these women's mindset.

"I don't align my views with an idiot simply because we both have vaginas"

Likewise

Do you feel the need to belong to a specific class?

I don't 'need' to belong to a specific class, but I am unavoidably a member of the set of people that has a body type that produces eggs, has periods, might grow another human if I have sexual intercourse with a man (whether or not this was voluntary), needs access to contraception or access to abortion to avoid giving birth to another human, produces food for other humans from my breasts, and has a limited fertility period. If for instance I fail to have periods, the medical protocol would be based on the fact that I have a female reproductive system. At no point will I be able to impregnate another female with my sperm.

I have also not benefited physically from having a naturally faster and stronger male body type. 'Punch a Nazi' isn't really a political option for me.

These unavoidable differences explain why women have suffered discrimination and why they sometimes need different services and facilities.

"Women are naturally more sympathetic" sounds to me like a sexism, but even if it is some innate quality, I have no idea how you measure relative sympathy levels. At a very basic level, nobody, on any side of the debate is suggesting that there be some kind of sympathy test to ascertain whether somebody is a woman. If it then follows that anybody can decide that they are a woman because they think that they are comparatively sympathetic, the word 'woman' becomes meaningless.

That is a bit of a problem if you are one of the previously mentioned people who unavoidably has a body of the type that produces eggs.

Why provide specific services for people with disabilities if nobody can explain who they are?

Why provide specific services for women if everybody is pretty much the same?

gameNight- do you have a view on the NUS loo labelling thing? To summarise-they have loos for men and gender neutral. No women's.

To be fair, I think this was at an even specifically for transgender people, and the the people who owned the venue wouldn't allow them to make all toilets gender neutral.

"event" not "even"

"I don't align my views with an idiot simply because we both have vagina"

Neither do I, but regardless of their beliefs all people with vaginas need certain services.

From a campaigning point of view solidarity is useful, but laws and provision need to be blind. Katie Hopkins and I both need access to smear tests because we are women, not because we are fellow members of the sisterhood.

I'm not the MRA

Claiming that women aren't oppressed is a very well known MRA soundbite. If it walks etc.

To be fair, I think this was at an even specifically for transgender people, and the the people who owned the venue wouldn't allow them to make all toilets gender neutral.

They weren't the only people using the venue.

@Idontdowindows

Claiming that biology isn't bigotry is a well known Christian Right soundbite. If it walks etc.

Of all the things you mention, "impregnating with sperm" is the only one which applies to me.

"'Punch a Nazi' isn't really a political option for me. "

What?

"Why provide specific services for women if everybody is pretty much the same?"

Definitely. Beyond specific medical areas it seems we agree.

@Idontdowindows

disabalism!