To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

[EyeRollChampion]

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

Your opinion has no more value than mine.

Goodo im glad we established that however if you think science supports innate gender identity I'd do some further reading if I were you.

I personally see more issues with your stance and ideology than with mine.

I'm sure you would do. That's what is known as "bias".

Well, apart, if I understand correctly, for TRAs

And other males. They're not budging up for trans identified people of either sex either.

There are specific reasons why some women need refuges that don’t include men.

We need adequate provision for everyone, whatever their sex. However that isn’t possible in a culture that has lost the ability to talk about sex for fear of causing offence.

Trade unionists weren't (aren't) oppressed because they were male, but because they were (are) workers under the control of a capitalist system. That category obviously includes women so of course it was right to expand to include women. It's a false analogy.

YY. Relief ducked that when I made the same point, albeit more obliquely.

Personally I support the rights of anyone who has committed to and undergone a medical sex change. With the exception of competitive sport I am happy to share access to female spaces with those people.

I do not support biological males sharing currently sex-segregated spaces with me (certain designs of toilet facilities, prisons, showering facilities in swimming pools etc) because they have a penis and both statistics and my own experiences show that biological males are far more likely to use their bodies to sexually assault and/or sexually intimidate biological females. Fact. I don't need to justify that viewpoint to you or anyone else.

In relation to your question about Mumsnet, if you want to contribute to the feminist discussion about a subject other than trans rights then go ahead and start your own topic. Be the change you want to see rather than waiting to be spoon fed.

To think that behavior must be learnt and not natural seems foolish to me.

1. Which behaviours do you think are natural in women?

2. Why would you think that these behaviours are not also natural when they are observed in men?

3. Why would the absence of these behaviours lead you to conclude that somebody is a man?

4. What difference does behaviour make anyway? Why do you need to classify people into 2 groups according to your assumptions about their behaviour?

I just wanted to say that i feel that saying you do or don't believe in gender is a perfectly valid statement to make on these types of threads

Saying my way or the high way is not on but if you say that you do believe that gender is innate and you are born with it and i think its personality then its obviously going to make a difference to the conversation

Im going back to lurking anyway...90% of us agree on 90% of this, but the attitude of 'im the only one that cares about trans rights' is really irritating.

"Trade unionists weren't (aren't) oppressed because they were male, but because they were (are) workers under the control of a capitalist system. That category obviously includes women so of course it was right to expand to include women. It's a false analogy."

That's a false distinction. Does it really matter if you're oppressed because of your gender, class or race? Are we playing oppression top trumps?

@Ereshkigal

Can you show anyone any proof that evolution and differences in the brain are insignificant compared to 'patriarchy / socialisation'?

If you think that science supports innate sex-based behavioural differences then you need to do more reading too.

Well done to you though for nearly understanding bias. You see, when the evidence can't support either theory, we need to say that we're unsure but we think x, y, z.

You see, I think your opinion fails Ocam's Razor and has more basis in arrogant ideology than science. It's an ad hoc argument which seems illogical and certainly isn't proven by science.

That's a false distinction. Does it really matter if you're oppressed because of your gender, class or race? Are we playing oppression top trumps?

The point is women are also workers so are also in that group.

Women are workers. Why would female workers reasonably be excluded from trade unions? Trans identified males are not female, therefore excluded from female sex segregated spaces. HTH.

Trans women are victims of abuse too. Why would trans women reasonably be excluded from shelters and services? HTH

You see, I think your opinion fails Ocam's Razor and has more basis in arrogant ideology than science. It's an ad hoc argument which seems illogical and certainly isn't proven by science.

Yep, and I think exactly the same about yours. You know what they say about opinions, everyone's got one

Happy for you to elaborate on how you came to your extremely informed and erudite opinion pile of misguided sexist nonsense, do feel free!

Trans women are victims of abuse too. Why would trans women reasonably be excluded from shelters and services? HTH

Because for women's safety and privacy we segregate these services by sex. HTH.

Care to give me a justification for segregating trade unions by sex?

Why would trans women reasonably be excluded from shelters and services?

They're not excluded from shelters and services. They are excluded from FEMALE shelters and services because they are male.

Just like women have had to do, male trans can fight for and fund their own shelters.

Trans women are victims of abuse too. Why would trans women reasonably be excluded from shelters and services?

Men are also victims of abuse. It is possible to provide shelters and services for different groups of people. Every shelter doesn’t have to be accessible to everyone.

Relief ‘Why should transwomen be excluded from shelters?’

Because they are men. And those shelters are for women.

Fundraise and campaign for transwomen shelters. It is utterly inappropriate for males to be given access to women’s refuges and completely against the ethos of the refuge movement. They are women only. Even sons over 18 cannot enter these places to visit their mothers in refuge. They are for women, not for men who identify as women.

Similarly BAME programmes and disabled parking are not available to everyone.

And there is a trans safe house I read about. Should they be forced to admit non trans people?

Obviously I don't think that, in fact entirely the opposite, for any eager screenshotters. You scamps!

I can’t see any reason why somebody wouldn’t open up a shelter that would be open to transwomen and women, or women and men.

The problem would be not being able to open shelters that are only open to women because we no longer have the language to explain what a woman is.

I am happy to agree that some behaviours may have biological rather than learned triggers. After all it is clear in nature that other sexually dimorphic species have sexually differentiated behaviours. Take Bowerbirds for example. However, if a scientist observed a female bower bird building a structure decorated with sticks and brightly coloured objects, would they conclude that this bird is actually an actual male no different from any other male? Or is it more likely that they would conclude that this is therefore a learned rather than biologically triggered behaviour? It might well be that they would conclude that more research would be necessary to be sure about the balance between biology and learned behaviour, but they certainly wouldn't start yelling "no debate" about it.

There are obviously women who, when sufficiently liberated from societal expectations, want to be engineers or arctic explorers. That means that these are behavioural choices which are in the natural range of behaviours for women and I don't expect many of these women consider themselves to be men. By the same logic, the fact that there are men who, when sufficiently liberated from societal expectations, want to dress in sparkly pink frocks and wear makeup etc (or any other behaviour that we call 'feminine') means that these are behavioural choices which are in the natural range of behaviours for men.

Absolutely merry. That is the heart of the matter.

By the same logic, the fact that there are men who, when sufficiently liberated from societal expectations, want to dress in sparkly pink frocks and wear makeup

Exactly. The framing of this as innately female fails to take into account those societal expectations and the fact that they are different in other societies and times.