Nightmare child and dh constantly undermining me.

[Justalittlelemondrizzle]

So dd2 is a nightmare! Her behaviour has become increasingly worse during the last year. Everything is a battle, getting her to school, eating her dinner, going to bed, etc.
About a month ago, after the holiday of a lifetime was marred by her behaviour I decided to be tougher.
This has been met with resistance from H who says I am now treating the dcs differently. Even saying to dd2 tonight "we all know who is mummys favourite" I mean who says that to a 9 year old. I don't have favourites!!
I'm not treating them differently dd1 can be a bit lippy and has her moments but nothing serious. "So obviously the punishments have to reflect the crime" so to speak.
I'm not being overly tough. But I am not letting her get away with treating me like shit anymore. And she is now using him against me.
I can't get him on board. I have tried. He says I'm not fit to be a mother because I wouldnt let her stay up to watch something tonight because of the way she'd just treated me (screaming at me, calling me names and spraying hairspray in mine and dd1s direction!! when I was attempting to dry her hair)

He's saying my punishments are unfair (she's grounded indefinitely until her behaviour improves) this decision wasn't taken lightly. This is after trying everything else for weeks. (Loss of screen time, grounded for an evening etc) these things wernt working. She'd just do her time and behave just as badly the next day, and the cycle would continue over and over again.

I'm trying to be consistent. Im trying to be fair. But I'm being constantly undermined by him and it's giving her more ammunition to behave badly.

Any advice re dd? And him..

OP, while you are a bit got at here, what you have said is a bit contradictory and the scapegoating does reek of a fairly dysfunctional attitude I am afraid.

Here are some examples that made me raise my eyebrows:

"She gets plenty of attention from me." How do you know this? You may give her a lot of attention but how do you know it is enough?

"Me and dh usually have a fine relationship." And yet he has gone AWOL. I haven't rtft but did he ever turn up?

"Dd2s behaviour has caused a rift." Again, this is a big thing to be accusing your DD of and you need to take responsibility for your relationship. How far will you take this line of thought? If you divorce will she be responsible for that too?

"She has no need to seek attention." This is something for a child psychologist to determine. Not her mother.

"If anyone should be seeking attention it should be dd1. Who is losing out because if all of this." Maybe this is true. But this is quite a common bullying/scapegoating tactic, particularly in families and workplaces. i.e. Look at all the problems you are causing for everyone else etc.

My suggestion would be its actually the reverse of how your seeing it.

From experience when children see their parents treated a way by another that normalises it for them. So she doesn't think your mean and unkind and isn't thinking she can behave to you how she likes - she's imitating her dads behaviour.

And often parents who are used to being undermined have little confidence to stop it until they have enough and have to be forceful.! It'll take time to change 9years if her attitude towards you.

It'll never change all the time she has someone to copy though. You need to seriously think about that

Do you think there shouldn't be consequences to ones actions?
Nobody's saying this.**
What people are trying to tell you are that the particular punishments you have chosen are neither proportionate nor effective.**

An 8 year old who has been grounded indefinitely with no clear goals will only feel like they will never be good enough so will give up on trying to behave well.**

You need the* set her clear, sensible goals and slowly work up to more difficult ones - just like you would if you were teaching her any other skill.*

Whoops. Don't know what happened with the bold there ???

It sounds to me as though you need some support via family therapy if you can access it. I'd be concerned about such an extreme deterioration in behaviour - it doesn't sound typical, it sounds as though something else in going on.

Not sure if constant punitive response is the right way to go (though totally understand why you find yourself doing this). For your dd's welfare, it's really important you and her father show a united front - but get some professional input. Something has gone wrong here. I hope it works out.

OP is the main brunt of her anger at you or everyone?

All actions have consequences - the point is yours at this moment in time have them as well

I hate to even say this, but is there any chance at all that she is being abused in any way? This is all striking a very alarming cord with me.

Hi

I hope you are ok after the slating you have received on here. I honestly cannot believe the way you have been attacked.

If I can give you some sound advice now it is to stop responding and ask mumsnet to delete the thread. These people are not qualified and would not know what to do either if they were in your position.

I completely agree that children who misbehave need consequences. That is why there is so much trouble with young people in society, because bad behaviour is rewarded.

I have not agreed with you to sound all nice and sweet as was suggested. I've disagreed with many posters on here but I happen to think you are right. The only reason your family are upset and arguing is because of DD.

Ignore the bonkers posts and don't let them upset you. I have always parented with the idea that bad behaviour needs consequences. It works op you just need to sit it out.

Take care of yourself

Literarydevil I have to say I'm thinking same what worries me is I don't think op will take that suggestion seriously.

So I would maybe make a GP appointment see if puberty and hormones

It always shocks me on here how much people believe a GP will deal with, they don't randomly test naughty kids for puberty!

Agree with littleboopeep-sometimes children can cause massive probs. They need consequences to help them in life or else where would we all be. Op-people too quick to judge on here. You were brave enough to ask for advice but little is right stop the thread -I'm sure you could without the added stress.Take care of yourself. Hope it gets better soon

littleboo
Much of the advice is compassionately meant; mine is. I see a high number of posters recommending Ross Greene's explosive child.

Sometimes consewuences do work, if a child just needs a reminder or is experimenting. But when consequences don't work, for a particular child, parents can end up like the OP describes, in a situation where the consequences get bigger and bigger and the parent gets more and more frustrated because they aren't having the desired affect. And sometimes, when that happens, instead of going on doing the same thing more and more negatively, it helps to reframe the behaviour, change your expectations or your plan, assume the child can't meet the behaviour expectations rather than that they won't, and try a completely different approach, which is what Ross Greene does so well.

OP you ask if children shouldn't get consequences. Yes, they should. But they should be relatively rare, time limited, and achievable. It's better from a parenting consistency point of view to take a phone for half an hour and stick to it, than for a week and end up giving it back after 3 days. Plus your "high end" tariffs feel overly punitive to your dh who is undermining you. So a compromise that works for both of you is needed.

Littleboo, there are many people on mumsnet and no doubt some are in fact qualified

the desired Effect*

The shame.....

So there are several possible roots of the problem and lines of action been suggested, OP. I think family therapy could help you all, whether it is that your dh is being an arse or you are accidently reproducing your own upbringing. I do hope there has been no abuse.

Oh OP, I feel for you, I really do. My DTD1 is exactly the same. I could've written the OP. NOTHING works. Rewards, punishment, consequences - nothing works.

My ex is a typical disney dad and refuses to work with me on the parenting. Every single weekend the progress I make during the week is undone by him. He badmouths me to the girls, openly disagrees with me in front of them etc etc.

DTD1 definitely mirrors his behaviour - she treats me the same way her DF treats me (he was very abusive).

I wish there was a magical solution, and it feels like I've 'broken' my child. I'm at my wits' end. So yes, I feel for you, I really do .

Oh, and my DTD1 is 9 as well.

She sounds like my DD1 - who can be the most delightful, helpful, so polite little old ladies melt in their tracks at it, intelligent little girl imaginable (she's a bit younger) but can also be rude, aggressive (she's improved massively on this - now it's just a screamed statement of outrage how I'm the Worst Mother Ever), and a right stroppy bugger.

I've come to accept she will never ever be an easy child and I'm always going to have to be on my toes with it - and I have to be deadly consistent in things with her as well. Difference is DH can be a prat at times - but he bloody well backs me up and we've got much better at swapping personnel dealing with it when she IS being challenging and we're nearing the end of our tethers.

There is usually a reason, however trivial it might seem, behind a flare up in her behaviour though - we're in the middle of one now and it's purely because they spent one session in the next classroom up two weeks ago and now the idea of transitioning up a year group is playing on her mind loads so we're getting it coming out at home. I predicted this one as soon as I knew they were spending that session in the next class up (was a theme week and they were getting to see what another class had done for their theme bit) and we're just going to have to do a bit of talking around it, and probably liase with the school somewhat to try to reduce how badly it's affecting her.

Realistically I think you've sanctioned yourself into a corner with the grounding thing and could use working out a way she can earn a quick 15 minutes before tea or whatever back... more than anything else her being out playing buys you a bit of a breathing space from each other.

Mine and DD1's problem basically is she IS mini-me. Hence we both know absolutely splendidly how to push each other's buttons - so these days I try not to deal with an outburst while it's still exploding and send her to her room to cool down a bit while I think it through more logically almost like a game of chess. It's working a bit - but I've said from quite an early age I won't be surprised if an ASD type diagnosis comes along at a later date (I don't think she'd even be considered now - if it is there she's a very adept social masker of it).

Not making out DD2 is an angel either - but she's much more straightforward - acts up, gets warned of a sanction if she continues, either continues and gets it - or stops... accompanied by some wonderfully theatrical tears that stop the instant she thinks she gets what she wants.

You need your DH on board though.

Oldbirdy There has been no one, unless I have missed it in which case I apologise, posting on this thread who has come forward to say they are a child behavioural specialist.

There has however been some very unkind posts practically attacking the OP and criticising her. The last few pages have been from posters almost goading her. "I see OP has nothing to say about this or that" or "Op just wants to listen to posters who agree with her"

She has been asked questions about the DD and when she has answered them honestly the posters have come back and said "why are you saying that? Why are you being negative? Have you nothing good to say about her?"

Why ask a question and then complain about the answer you get. Would you have preferred her to lie?

Some have suggested that she should be listening to her DH "as he clearly isn't happy with your parenting style"

No, he clearly isn't as he belittled and ridiculed her in front of the difficult DD and informed her that her sister was DM's favourite. On a forum where women are advised to LTB if their DP as much as accidentally leaves a light on, I find this advice incredulous.

She is a DM who is struggling and came here for advice yet within 24 hours she has been called toxic, told her DD is a "welfare" concern, her upbringing wasn't a happy one and she is basically treating her DD in the same damaging way her DM treated her. Someone actually said "oh she doesn't sound awful to me, she sounds lovely"

Goodness! Talk about kicking someone when they are down.

I cannot believe how many posters think that DC's should not lose privileges for bad behaviour, that bad behaviour should be ignored and instead focus on the positives. No wonder we live in a society where young people have such little respect for adults.

I hope the OP stays away from this thread as it's become very unpleasant.

boopeep
Re: qualified people...
Your inferenceometer isn't set to finely tuned tonight, is it! Did you not see my wink? How might I know someone qualified is indeed posting?

I didn't say she hadn't been attacked at all. I just said some people were posting in disagreement with OP's approach but with constructive advice.

Lemondrizzle,

With respect, I see a lot of people trying to gently point out why your methods aren’t working and you’re just not hearing anyone out. Is it possible that’s the underlying problem here? Your DD2 doesn’t feel heard and your husband feels like his parenting contributions aren’t being respected and it’s just devolved into one giant shouting match and grappling for control?

Some kids start puberty earlier than others. It’s possible for a 9 year old to have big teenage emotions and opinions without the self control and communication skills to know how to express them appropriately. She needs someone to model those skills for her. Unfortunately, you haven’t been able to even articulate the basic household rules that DD2 is breaking. You’ve just said she’s a nightmare and things are getting worse and you’re grounding her indefinitely. That won’t work. You’re taking away any hope or motivation for her to behave well since she’s grounded with no end in sight. You said she’s grounded until she behaves better and I’m willing to bet she has no idea what “better” even means. I doubt she believes that a day of good behavior will truly get her off your shit list.

Punishments should be immediate, specific, time limited, and follow a logical consequence. Something like, you ask her to put her bike away in the garage because it’s supposed to rain. She doesn’t follow through as you directed and her bike gets ruined. You point out that she didn’t listen and put it up so you won’t buy her a new bike. Then you follow through and make her do extra chores to earn the money to get it fixed herself. You need your husband on board with a list of 5-10 basic household rules that everyone is to follow. There should be a set of pre-agreed upon consequences for bad behavior that are posted in writing. Then, those rules are universally enforced for everyone calmly, without shouting, name calling, extra punishments added on top, or accusations of favoritism. I’d strongly recommend a short course of parent coaching or family therapy to help you set this up.

bopeep
Yes, op has asked for advice. However, the only advice you appear to have given is to continue in the same vein then criticise others for not agreeing with you. How’s that working for the op and her dd?

Your inferenceometer isn't set to finely tuned tonight, is it!

Haha a wink is as good as a nod to a blind man, as the saying goes.

Ignore the bonkers posts and don't let them upset you - @Mylittleboopeep

It's pretty rude to call posts that you disagree with "bonkers".

I have always parented with the idea that bad behaviour needs consequences. It works op you just need to sit it out. @Mylittleboopeep

Except, the op has admitted NOTHING is working. So sitting it out won't actually achieve anything.

The op who suggested a dr isn't far wrong, to be honest. Both @Uniquack and @Justalittlelemondrizzle have children who are struggling with something.

Contrary to many pp's belief on this thread, kids do not act out like this for no reason, and you can be sure that if you as a family are struggling with their behaviour, your child is struggling more so. To ignore this and continue down the road that has so far lead nowhere is doing you all, much more so your struggling child, a complete disservice.

If all else has failed you really should start looking at other things. I really don't think it is as simple as "I'm more strict now" etc.

Also, if your marriage is struggling under the strain of your child's behaviour, you need to address that with your partner, not blame your child. It's too convenient an excuse (and yes, I have been there, our struggles were due to not knowing what we were dealing with - pre diagnosis - and our insistence that we were both right while parenting completely differently. Now we know what it is, we are much more cohesive and parent similarly. Therefore, we argue less)

Put simply, you own it to your child op to look at this from a different perspective. Because what you are doing, it isn't working and the main sufferer is your daughter.

I cannot believe how many posters think that DC's should not lose privileges for bad behaviour, that bad behaviour should be ignored and instead focus on the positives. No wonder we live in a society where young people have such little respect for adults @Mylittleboopeep

People have told op not to take things away from her dd for bad behaviour because it isn't working

Oddly enough, you can raise children who have respect for adults without denying them playing outside.

Sorry to agree with minority and admit to not having RFT but have read:

Pay the child from hell for being good when she is????

Limit the time you expect her to be good, say 10 mins. Wow!

Yep, hate to agree but bonkers alright