Nightmare child and dh constantly undermining me.

[Justalittlelemondrizzle]

So dd2 is a nightmare! Her behaviour has become increasingly worse during the last year. Everything is a battle, getting her to school, eating her dinner, going to bed, etc.
About a month ago, after the holiday of a lifetime was marred by her behaviour I decided to be tougher.
This has been met with resistance from H who says I am now treating the dcs differently. Even saying to dd2 tonight "we all know who is mummys favourite" I mean who says that to a 9 year old. I don't have favourites!!
I'm not treating them differently dd1 can be a bit lippy and has her moments but nothing serious. "So obviously the punishments have to reflect the crime" so to speak.
I'm not being overly tough. But I am not letting her get away with treating me like shit anymore. And she is now using him against me.
I can't get him on board. I have tried. He says I'm not fit to be a mother because I wouldnt let her stay up to watch something tonight because of the way she'd just treated me (screaming at me, calling me names and spraying hairspray in mine and dd1s direction!! when I was attempting to dry her hair)

He's saying my punishments are unfair (she's grounded indefinitely until her behaviour improves) this decision wasn't taken lightly. This is after trying everything else for weeks. (Loss of screen time, grounded for an evening etc) these things wernt working. She'd just do her time and behave just as badly the next day, and the cycle would continue over and over again.

I'm trying to be consistent. Im trying to be fair. But I'm being constantly undermined by him and it's giving her more ammunition to behave badly.

Any advice re dd? And him..

Op I haven't RTFT but just to try and give you some hope, my Dd2 was like this at 9. Are you in the uk? She is Y5? Mine changed at the end of Y5 and was horrendous all the way through Y6; it didn't matter if we begged, shouted, punished, love bombed - her attitude and behaviour at home and towards Dd1 2years older) were awful. She became human again during her first week at Secondary so we put it down to her readjusting to growing up - at 9 they realise they're about to hit the top of school/ SATS / hormones and friendship issues - not to mention body and image . DD1 sailed through this stage, DD2 fought it all the way - some kids just don't tackle life easily. We talked through her worst behaviour when she was calm and rational but it was like being on a hamster wheel! Anyway good luck. I think you have got to agree a way forward with your H first and then talk it through as a family. Write the rules up somewhere if need be. I'd have sent mine to Supernanny if I could!!

I have taken on board all advice given. Do you think there shouldn't be consequences to ones actions? Do you not think that a child needs to learn boundaries before they become unruly teenagers/adults?
I tried the softly softly approach before taking a harder line. And before that we were far too soft on both of them. Dd1 responded to the softly softly approach. Dd2 didn't. So we have had to change tactics as her behaviour was becoming worse. I don't think it's fair for you to insult me when you clearly haven't read my other posts.

Behavior is communication. What is driving the behavior? If her behavior has dramatically changed recently, what has changed in her life/people she mixes with/pressure/expectations?

I'd be doing some serious questioning to understand what is driving her behavior. until you understand that, you won't be able to improve the situation-punishments are not working and will erode her self esteem.

My son has ASD and my daughter is explosive from time to time. I can guarantee that when their behaviour is challenging, there is an underlying issue, whether they are tired, hungry, overwhelmed, anxious, stressed etc etc. Look at Lives in the Balance by Ross Green all around collaborative problem solving. the mantra being "kids do well if they can". Generally no one wants to create problems for others

It's made a big difference to us as a family, and we have had some really tough stuff to deal with. we have a totally open dialogue with our kids. We don't punish them. We have certain expectations and we talk around choices and consequences not fault.

Now you're in denial.

My family had a similar dynamic. For my dad I was the favourite, sister scapegoated, for mum I was scapegoated and sister the favourite and bro was basically ignored by both!!

It IS emotionally abusive because that is not a healthy dynamic for any child.

You're blaming dd alone for ruining the "holiday of a lifetime" I should have looked back earlier as one of my own questions is answered by "dh says I am now treating the DC's differently"

"I can't get him on board" means he disagrees with you - he doesn't have to agree with you!

"She's driving a huge wedge between us" is the kinda crap my father would say. She's a young child not only does she not have that power, she doesn't have the maturity to consciously do that and she CERTAINLY shouldn't be attributed that responsibility.

"there is nothing else I can do." In large part because you've painted yourself into a corner!

"They've always been closer to dd1"

"dd1 is like them"

"I had a very happy childhood.
But due to my own bad behaviour I was blamed for things" those 2 things DON'T go together.

they really aren't appropriate people to leave your children with unsupervised.

How can she be "smart" "manipulative" yet also struggling at school - doesn't really make sense, unless there's a learning issue.

How old were you when you remember realising your brother was favoured by your mother? How did you feel?

A whole day of good behaviour is FAR too big an ask. You really need to give her something achievable with an instant reward. As a pp suggested doing X = 1/2 hour outside. I bet at this point she'd grab at the chance.

Lemon
All I can say is that based on what you have posted it looks like a repeat of your childhood. That may not be the case but it appears that your childhood was

1. Mostly well behaved child (DB)
2. Child that is badly behaved and must be punished (You)

and your DC are

1. Mostly well behaved child (DD1)
2. Child that is badly behaved and must be punished (DD2)

It maybe that DD1 is a different personality that DD2 and that is what is driving this dynamic. Have a look at the Explosive Child book I've linked to, it offers some good strategies for finding a different approach to a child where our default parenting strategies aren't producing the desired result.

Chazs I mostly agree with your post but would argue it's more

Child 1 - fits with expectations of how child "should" be and therefore not seen as a "problem"

Child 2 - different (in whatever way) and therefore seen as a "problem" to be "fixed".

I'd back up Chazs reccomendation of The Explosive Child-that's the one I meant to refer to too! It's really helped me support my kids and parent more effectively

I agree with Graphista. You are in denial about your dd and your childhood. Idk how it will be possible to get you listen. Your husband is so not helping by telling your dd is the scapegoat. Do you realise this will never leave her? You need right now, today to step up and prove to your dd just how much you love her and how far you’re willing to go for her.

I think a child psychologist would be an excellent idea.

Graphista
I think that's a fair point

Crikey, I would never come on mumsnet asking for help for parenting difficulties. You are asked for details of the problems, then you get accused of being negative about your child. You mention punishments are are almost accused of child abuse. Dare to say anything about your own relationship with your parents, and all the armchair psychologists pounce about “repeating patterns”, and I knew that Radio 2 should never have done a piece about “scapegoating kids”......

So sorry OP. You come across as a caring mother at the end of her tether. I think your DH, as you are aware, is exacerbating the problem. To say to your DD about you having “favourites” is a truly toxic remark. It’s not just undermining you, it could feed into, or create anxieties for your DD. It’s turning you into the “baddie”, and creating sides. He has to stop this to move forward as you know, although I really don’t know how to make him.

Agreed NellieEllie

In fact I agreed with your whole post.

My dm wasn't emotionally abusive. She was closer to db and I was closer to my ddad. It's just how we were. And our personalities. I had a very happy childhood.
But due to my own bad behaviour I was blamed for things. 90% of the time, correctly blamed.

No. I was an incredibly difficult child. Db was the complete opposite.

Come on OP, earlier in the thread you were talking about how your mother scapegoated you and how awful that was and how you would never do it to your own child.

But as soon as the similarities and people raise concerns about their influence on DD and suddenly you had a wonderful childhood and were just a naughty child who was fairly disciplined?

Come on, that’s deep, deep denial.

The main thing I’m getting from your posts is classic scapegoater traits. You don’t want to hear anything but how this is all your daughter’s fault because she is so awful unless it’s criticism of your DH for standing up for her. Everything is her fault and even the family you were so critical of earlier in the thread are now apparently wonderful.

You appear to have very little insight into the situation and a complete unwillingness to accept anybody might be even the slightest bit at fault in this situation except for a small child who is mainly the product of the environment you have given her.

I suspect one of the reasons you seem reluctant to take up family therapy is because you know you’d end up hearing things you didn’t want to hear.

I think you mention that she is bright but performing badly at school. The frustration with this disparity will be increasing with age and could well explain the behaviours you are seeing. I would recommend an assessment as ADHD, high functioning ASD etc can portray very differently in girls, alternatively perhaps dyslexia, hearing, auditory processing etc but it is definitely worth ruling everything out at the very least. There will be a reason.

"I suspect one of the reasons you seem reluctant to take up family therapy is because you know you’d end up hearing things you didn’t want to hear."

I agree. And contrary to what op's said I wonder if dh has already suggested it and it's op that won't consider it.

Graphista, totally agree with your posts. The scapegoated child knows they are never going to completely change personality and be like the golden child so they accept their place as the scapegoated child and play into it.

But it's necessary for BOTH children. Being the golden child can be damaging too. Plus at the moment it sounds like the sisters still get along (dd1 trying to reassure dd2 when dad stormed off) if this continues that relationship will be damaged too.

Yes if you keep telling a child "you're this" they'll become "this" hell it even happens to adults!

You say you tell her you love her, that she knows this - 2 things my mother STILL says BUT she NEVER SHOWS it. So no I don't know.

Do you show her? I'm not just talking about hugs, but by trying to understand her? Listening to her? Believing in her? FORGIVING her?

psychology2mind.com/narcissism---what-is-the-golden-child-syndrome.html

OP I know this might feel like we are getting at you and if only we just told you how to get DD2 to behave then it would be alright.

One of the reasons I have commented on the repeating pattern is because my DDad had a shit childhood (no fault of his own - think early parental death etc) consequently, the way he parented me and my DB was less than ideal at times. Therefore, I didn't have the best model for my DC either, consequently, when I heard and saw myself repeating some of my DDad's parenting I started getting some help and reading books because I realised I didn't have the tools to deal with parenting my DC.

(As an adult I got on well with my DDad because I could understand why he behaved the way he did and not take it personally but as a child it was tough. I am not criticising him by the way he was doing the best he could based on what he had been through - he cared about us deeply).

Agree graphista. I’ve also noticed that the OP doesn’t respond positively to any suggestion of how to improve the situation and dismisses them all. The entire point of this thread seems to be to get people to agree that her daughter is so awful she’s beyond help and reinforce her negative view of her child.

Mighty
Agreed. The only posts op seems to like are those disagreeing with the majority. Op seems to think we are advising her to back down, to let her dd win and therefore op lose. When in fact it’s not even about backing down, it’s about diffusing the situation and allowing the family to heal.

Yes it's a competitive view. Taking a different choice isn't op "losing" but she sees it that way.

I too needed help with parenting. I wasn't repeating my parenting but I was muddled. Too soft one day too strict the next. Long since rectified with help.

Still a strict parent but that was a conscious choice due to living in an area with a high early sex, teen pregnancy and drink and drug issues.

But you have to choose your strict. AND leave yourself somewhere to go if needed. The child also knows it can go in EITHER direction - forgiveness and reward or more consequences.

OP, I don't have a child but I was one once with parents such as you and your DH. My DM would send my sister and I to our rooms if we had behaved badly, my DF, who was a kind and gentle soul, would come home from work and we could hear him pleading with my DM to let us go downstairs, which made her mad because he refused to discipline us himself or support her.

Things changed after a while and I think they must have had 'words' so while DF never disciplined us he never questioned my DM's discipline, they put on a united front and we soon learned that it was pointless appealing to Dad.

What about having a chat with your DH to see if you can come to a united front where discipline is concerned? Even if he doesn't actually discipline your DD, could he at least agree not to interfere with the discipline you have handed out and perhaps on your part you could cut back on the severity of discipline?

I wish you luck.

Your h is the problem here
Agree.

Suggest you go away with your DH for a weekend of quality time and discuss how you are going to deal with the behaviour. You need to agree how it will be dealt with and he needs to support you. Your daughter is probably feeling really insecure because of all the disagreement and comments you mentioned

Gosh OP I am glad it was you not me that asked the question as I said upthread I wanted to read the replies because we have been having similar issues.

I think from reading them I agree with those saying that the behaviour is trying to communicate something that is amiss. Our DS and other DD have AN and in my case I believe DD is reacting to the attention they have been getting for example.

Interestingly I would see my upbringing as similar to yours except my scapegoatedness was determined by my DF but enforced by my DM. My DF could not deal with emotions so he found any form of emotional outburst as being very distasteful. As an emotional child by personality I should have been born to an Italian family because my parents found it literally impossible to parent a child like that. And so I was the problem. Not their attitude to emotion and their inability to help a child through any negative emotion. It was a really horrible way to grow up. It might be worth thinking about what about her personality is so distasteful to you and work out if you can change your own narrative around that to change the dynamic. Btw I would have limited trust in your own families view of her you have already said that something about you bugged your mother 90% of the time. That tells me more about your mother than you to be honest and you can be guaranteed your family will be influenced by her too.