Nightmare child and dh constantly undermining me.

[Justalittlelemondrizzle]

So dd2 is a nightmare! Her behaviour has become increasingly worse during the last year. Everything is a battle, getting her to school, eating her dinner, going to bed, etc.
About a month ago, after the holiday of a lifetime was marred by her behaviour I decided to be tougher.
This has been met with resistance from H who says I am now treating the dcs differently. Even saying to dd2 tonight "we all know who is mummys favourite" I mean who says that to a 9 year old. I don't have favourites!!
I'm not treating them differently dd1 can be a bit lippy and has her moments but nothing serious. "So obviously the punishments have to reflect the crime" so to speak.
I'm not being overly tough. But I am not letting her get away with treating me like shit anymore. And she is now using him against me.
I can't get him on board. I have tried. He says I'm not fit to be a mother because I wouldnt let her stay up to watch something tonight because of the way she'd just treated me (screaming at me, calling me names and spraying hairspray in mine and dd1s direction!! when I was attempting to dry her hair)

He's saying my punishments are unfair (she's grounded indefinitely until her behaviour improves) this decision wasn't taken lightly. This is after trying everything else for weeks. (Loss of screen time, grounded for an evening etc) these things wernt working. She'd just do her time and behave just as badly the next day, and the cycle would continue over and over again.

I'm trying to be consistent. Im trying to be fair. But I'm being constantly undermined by him and it's giving her more ammunition to behave badly.

Any advice re dd? And him..

Glad you're considering parenting classes OP. Maybe also consider counselling for yourself. Sometimes by changing our behaviour we change the way others react/interact with us. You might find it really helpful.

I too feel that you sound rather angry and negative about your daughter. Even the posts where you are trying to be positive contain some negativity, which is sad.

Your husband may be part of the problem but he might also have identified an issue that you need to address. Hope you can work it out!

I think you do need to be honest with yourself about your relationship with DH. On the one hand you say he's a "selfish knob who will do anything for an easy life" and on the other hand you say your relationship was fine before and it's all DD2's fault

Agreed.

And latterly “He's an absolute dick who I'm sure is revelling in being her number one”.

I think OP needs to address DH’s true personality and how she really feels about it.

OP, you say that DD is manipulating him, it’s not unusual for the naughty child to play the soft parent off against the strict one. But he’s manipulating her too. And she is caught in the crossfire between two adults with very different parenting styles and inability to get onto the same page.

Family therapy might be helpful but finding a good family therapist on a low budget can be nigh on impossible. The second best thing will be to start by getting on the same page as your Dh. It sounds like you have both made mistakes. Him by minimising her bad behaviour since it doesn't affect him directly and OP by unilaterally deciding on a much stricter style of parenting and just expecting him to back you up. The Dh is bad in his undermining little comments, but you can see from this thread that many intelligent posters also don't agree with a strict, punishment focused style of parenting for difficult children. So it may be that the Dh has a point and a sensible compromise you both agree on can be reached.

I am a strict parent, dd would definitely not say I was EVER a soft parent but even I think op has gone too far.

Grounding indefinitely until the dd vaguely "improves" is bonkers!

A 9 year old isn't going to understand that plus at 9 a month feels like a year!

Op's OH shouldn't have said that in front of the children, but I could completely understand him saying it to op. I'm wondering if he has been TRYING To talk to op about all this and isn't being heard.

I don’t expect bad years ahead with my soon to be teen. I just think for many parents and teens adjusting to the puberty changes and more independence can be a difficult transition.
My husband was a dream teen. I was an absolute nightmare. You never know how things are going to be.

I understand what it is to be a scapegoat. I am a family scapegoat. My mother tried to scapegoat my dd. My brother and his wife also scapegoated my dd. At first I tried to talk to my dd about my brother and his wife - I never spoke to them as this would have been futile, sil is too nasty and manipulative and my brother violent. We saw them very infrequently until their behaviour toward dd and me became too unacceptable. As a result, we are nc with them. As for my mother, i thought I could trust her to have dd alone. I no longer think this after events, which happened last year between my brother and me and what my mother said about it. She is a far better grandmother than she was mother. As a result, we see her but infrequently and as far as I’m concerned she’s bloody lucky Dh and I allow this.

I don’t think you’ve reached this point with your family. I read that you are still trying to please them. Am I correct? Because if my family spoke about my dd how yours are speaking about your dd, I’d have a) taken them to task and told them that seeing my dd is not a right but a privilege, b) spoken to my dd (on each occasion they acted like shit) about how wonderful and lovely she is and that these adults are behaving like tall children and c) if all else failed, go nc with the family members, who were too awful.

Your dd is the same age as mine btw. She is a vivacious child with boundless energy and I could easily get into the sort of fights you are describing with mine. I don’t set up a win/lose dynamic with her. I try for a win/win. It doesn’t always work and dh and I do also loose our tempers from time to time and disagree with parenting some of the time. However, if my dh ever spoke to my dd how he spoke to yours about favourites, I would hit the roof.

I agree with other posters, you need to start afresh.

Go to your dd. Tell her you’re sorry you’ve grounded her forever. That you’ve lifted the ban. You love her very much. Together you’re going to work out a plan so that life feels much easier and happier for her. Tell her you’re struggling because you’re just her mummy and get things wrong. Show her that it’s you together as a family unit as opposed to being pitched against eachother. You can then build on this as her thinking about her behaviour and you thinking about yours. For she’s old enough to discuss what she thinks is appropriate behaviour and what she thinks you are being too harsh about and should let go. She’s also old enough to come up with some consequences together.

And remember to smile more, love yourself and your children as much as you possibly can and show that to them every day. The message she should be receiving is I’m cross but I still love you. Even when I am ever so cross with my dd, she always knows she can come to me for a hug and we can talk. So try not to push your dd away.

OP you have my sympathy and understanding. We have struggled with extreme behaviour issues from DD1 since she was a toddler and only now at 10.5 are we starting to have a better time of it although who knows if it will last! DD2 in contrast misbehaves, can be cheeky and rude etc but responds to warnings and discipline in a ‘normal way’ and so we don’t suffer the same stress and angst in managing her behaviour. I have questioned several times whether DD1 has some extra needs I am not addressing but have concluded that she is emotionally immature for her age and doesn’t cope well with stress (e.g at school) and this is most likely the cause but still haven’t ruled anything out.

DD1’s behaviour has definitely put a strain on my and DH’s relationship and we have had similar issues with inconsistencies, sometimes because we have different views on the best way to handle it and other times because one parent is so worn down by it all, they almost daren't discipline as know it will cause a bigger explosion and just havent got the strength that day to deal with it. So I do understand. It’s tough and relentless and it takes its toll.

I do think some of the negative comments you have had on here are perhaps from people who don’t experience this extreme behaviour.

However fwiw, things I have learnt along the way are firstly that DH and I MUST be on the same page and parent consistently otherwise it sends the message to DD1 that we don’t know what we are doing and that we’re wrong and she’s right. If you can, sit down and agree a set of family rules/behaviours that you want to address and and agree a set of consequences that you are both comfortable following through on. I think grounding is a good one to use for your DD on theoccasions you really need to ramp up the consequences as it seems like something that would bother her and she would feel is worth her working towards. However I can’t help but think that your currently stance of ‘indefinitely’ leaves you with no-where left to go and your dd has no clear goal to achieve to lift it that it seems so unachievable to your dd that it’s almost not worth her trying. With both dd’s, our standard consequences if warnings are not listened to are minutes off bed or tv, in increments of 5 mins. If DD1 does not respond to this and the minutes are escalating or her behaviour is extreme, then that’s when I would (with warning first) , go to ‘consequences’ which means she loses anything I consider to be a treat - be it a whole day of tv time, grounding that day/next day, a treat out If that’s what was planned, birthday party etc etc. In one episode, DD1 once ramped up to 15 consequences as she just wouldn’t give in and calm down over a 2 hour period and it took her 2 weeks for her to work through all of her consequences. Since then, we have never got beyond 2 consequences before she realises I mean business and will follow through.

Other things I have had to learn that can stop it getting to extreme cases sometimes (not always) is if I keep calm and my voice level no matter how bad it gets. It’s not easy to do when things are really bad and I don’t always succeed but if I don’t react except with a calm but firm ‘ your behaviour is not acceptable and this is your consequence’ she does realise she is not guaging a reaction and it does calm her down quicker. I am also better now and recognising when she’s had a tough day at school and show my understanding first but also make it clear that it doesn’t excuse her behaviour if she continues to speak to me badly.

Beyond that I think parenting courses and engaging with the school are well worth considering.

I hope things improve for you soon as your DH and yo7 are able to find a way to be on the same page

Its a perfectly valid point to say this strict routine isn’t working. But rather than coming up with an alternative, he’s simply telling DD that her mother effectively prefers her sister etc. Which is highly damaging.

It’s perfectly reasonable not to allow DD to stay up to watch something after she was nasty to OP and her sister. It’s not reasonable to call OP an ‘unfit mother’ for doing so. It undermines OP and makes DD feel like she can get away with anything.

However I can’t help but think that your currently stance of ‘indefinitely’ leaves you with no-where left to go and your dd has no clear goal to achieve to lift it that it seems so unachievable to your dd that it’s almost not worth her trying.

I agree.

^^. 9.29 post was in reply to:

So it may be that the Dh has a point and a sensible compromise you both agree on can be reached.

Lift the indefinite grounding. Let her play out, her mood will improve with some fresh air, exercise and company. It is ok for you to back down a bit here, your DD really can't win at the moment and this is making you both miserable.
Once again, pick your battles,won't eat dinner? Fine, leave it. Only enforce the essential, like going to school. The rest, just ignore.
My DD is a few years older than yours but when she was 7/8 had periods of really uncharacteristic bad behaviour. After struggling to understand why our normally lovely child was being so mean, we finally twigged she was having problems that we unrelated to her home, school or parenting. She was anxious and having intrusive thoughts and catastrophising. One of her grandparents was seriously ill and it was affecting us all. She had a swift referral to CAHMS and saw a counsellor within a few weeks. It has made such a difference.
I would agree that there may be something going on with your daughter and how she feels about herself that is behind it. She knows she is being labelled as bad by the wider family, punished at home, and she really won't have the personal skills yet to negotiate her way out of this.
At least go and chat to your GP, even if just on your own, ours was really helpful.

I agree with the other posters that you have got yourself a bit stuck with the indefinite grounding. There is no where to go from here and your DD now has nothing to lose - you can't punish her more for anything as she has already had the nuclear option.

I would strongly recommend the following books:-
www.amazon.co.uk/Explosive-Child-Understanding-Frustrated-Chronically/dp/0062270451?tag=mumsnetforum-21

www.amazon.co.uk/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen-ebook/dp/B00APJOY3A/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&keywords=how+to+talk+so+kids+will+listen+and+listen+so+kids+will+talk&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1525080636&sr=1-1

I have found both books very helpful with my DC. I have two dyslexic DC who sometimes react very strongly when faced with work that they find challenging or if something in school has made them feel stupid. They also tend to hold it together in school (mostly) but let it out at home.

You need to agree a strategy with your DH as well. He is being a dick with his comments which is only fuelling the tension in the situation. My DH has a tendency swing between letting things go for a quiet life and ramping up to the nuclear option quite quickly when he finally has had too much and I tend to have a stubborn desire to be right so we have both had to change what we do as we were both adding to the problems.

Does she have any difficulties with school work? Is she organised or disorganised? Can she stay focussed on a task? Is she clumsy?
If the answers to these questions suggest a there might be an issue then check out this book too
www.amazon.co.uk/Dyslexia-dyslexia-dyspraxia-learning-difficulties-ebook/dp/B008S9YMR2/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&keywords=valerie+muter&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1525081252&sr=1-1

I'm definately not going to let her out until her behaviour improves ... She hasn't even managed a full day of good behaviour yet.

Of course she hasn't, and she won't!! You're flogging a dead horse on that front. A full day of "good behaviour" will be impossible. Instead of doing that, why not tell her "if you can get dressed & get to school without a fuss you can 30 minutes outside after school"

Any SN involved, op?

I ask because your comment I think it's just got progressively worse due to us not addressing her increasingly worse behaviour over time was exactly what we thought last year after dd had a bad 6mths. Turns out she is ASD with severe tactile sensory issues, so she was uncomfortable and overwhelmed and we didn't know. Now we know how to help her navigate her day, her behaviour has improved SO much!!

Crikey, I would never come on mumsnet asking for help for parenting difficulties. You are asked for details of the problems, then you get accused of being negative about your child. You mention punishments are are almost accused of child abuse. Dare to say anything about your own relationship with your parents, and all the armchair psychologists pounce about “repeating patterns”, and I knew that Radio 2 should never have done a piece about “scapegoating kids”......

So sorry OP. You come across as a caring mother at the end of her tether. I think your DH, as you are aware, is exacerbating the problem. To say to your DD about you having “favourites” is a truly toxic remark. It’s not just undermining you, it could feed into, or create anxieties for your DD. It’s turning you into the “baddie”, and creating sides. He has to stop this to move forward as you know, although I really don’t know how to make him.

I think what may be happening now is things are spiralling. So, both your daughters behaviour, your DHs response and communication with you has now gathered it’s own momentum. So, maybe a deep breath and call a stop. Is it worth saying to him that you need to discuss things with him. Set aside some time and explain how you feel, that you need to agree on some course of action, It is very easy for him to sit on the sidelines and criticise you, but he needs to recognise there is a problem and that you need to agree a solution. I would be very firm that inconsistency and him undermining you is bad for your daughter. Telling her you have “favourites” is not just horribly unfair on you, it is damaging to her. Try to get an agreement he will not do this again. If this doesn’t work then maybe some outside help?

I think it worth you making an appointment with the school. As others have said, it is SO common for children with any learning/processing difficulties, or with anxieties to hold themselves together at school and then go berserk at home. Try to see if there are any friendship/academic issues. Are there things she is good at, and things she finds really hard. The school may be able to help refer you for informal family therapy or a counsellor re the behaviour. A GP could refer your DD for counselling, or for assessment if you think this may help.

Putting a stop to the spiral, I would say, maybe the same with your DD. My 10 yr old DD was pretty awful at 9. It was like she would get furious for no reason, be horrid and be totally unable to back down. Some things I found that helped. When I felt I’d lost it a bit and didn’t know what to do, I waited until she was in a good mood and calm, then chatted privately in her room, just saying that there was a problem which we needed to sort, identifying behaviour which wasn’t nice and then both of us talking about what might make it better. What I think really helped was identifying to her that she was growing up so maybe she could be more helpful and I could trust her more to do stuff. Giving her responsibilities REALLY helped. I think it made her feel good about herself. This could be whatever you think your DD might like. My DD was keen to start cooking meals, baking cakes, supervised, but her doing everything. I bought her her own hair dryer, she started doing tricks training with one of the dogs. If your DD is difficult about eating dinner, maybe agreeing a week’s menu and getting her to help cook? I also chat to her about “my day”, asking what she thinks about things, or what people had done. Sometimes we spend hours in her room ‘tidying’, but in reality just chatting and joking. She loves animals so sometimes I’ll find a funny dog video on you tube and go up to her room to show her. I suppose it’s trying to have “good moments”. I know this is all pretty obvious, and I’m sure you do it anyway, but, with me, it was about doing MORE of this stuff.

Also, the knowing when to back off. My DD would radiate “leave me alone” behaviour. When she was about to “blow”, I’d back off, or I’d give time where possible. Sometimes even say, “OK, I can see you’re cross so you’ve got 10minutes before we go”. Giving warnings too, so, “OK, 10 minutes before tea/bed/leaving for school.

I tried the charts, withdrawal of privileges and rewards, but it didn’t seem to effect any change. I do still impose “consequences” for bad behaviour though if needed, although the last 6 months or so has been so much better. If my DCs keep me waiting for some reason, then if it’s significant, it comes off their time in the evening. So, if you're half hour coming down late for tea, there’s now no time for TV/screen. If you’re late going up to bed, then no time for your book and you’ll have to go up early tomorrow, so again, no time for screens/tv. Having said that, it’s rarely needed because I try to keep them “on side” and they both (10 and 12 ) are still read to before bed, which they really look forward to - they pick a book and get a chapter or so each night.

I do hope things improve for you. I think it must be very hard with your family not helping either. These things can make you feel so alone.

Maybe pay for a child psychologist to see DD, you and DH together.

Sometimes a parent will listen to a professional, especially if it’s paid for.

OP, I’ve been thinking about this this morning. It occurred to me that a lot of this seems to have happened after a falling out with your family and in particular after DD has been spending quite a bit of time with your DM re the tutoring.

As you say your DM scapegoated you and was emotionally abusive I’m wondering if the two are connected and there has been some sort of manipulation going on which has sparked this behaviour?

It does seem a bit worrying that you’ve admitted there was scapegoating behaviour and emotional abuse in your family as a child but you’re not factoring that sort of behaviour in when looking at their behaviour towards your own DD. It does seem almost like the same patterns of behaviour are happening again and they’re so familiar to you that you’ve just unthinkingly fallen into them.

I think your DH was wrong to say what he did about favourites in front of DD. But I really think you need to listen to him on this. He is the one in this situation who is outside the unhealthy dynamic in your family and will have a bit more perspective on what is ‘normal’ and things which you might perhaps think of as normal because of your family background but in fact aren’t and are actually quite destructive.

My dm wasn't emotionally abusive. She was closer to db and I was closer to my ddad. It's just how we were. And our personalities. I had a very happy childhood.
But due to my own bad behaviour I was blamed for things. 90% of the time, correctly blamed.

Lemon - your last post is very hard on yourself.
I hate the idea of blaming children. Who blamed you for your behaviour and was the same behaviour in your db overlooked?

No. I was an incredibly difficult child. Db was the complete opposite.

I have no children, so not sure how helpful this is - but I listened to a podcast the other day that described your situation almost word for word. It was on how the environment impacts on mental health, specifically with regards to anxiety and depression.

In a vast over-simplification, we know that when animals are in the wrong unnatural environments and under-stimulated, they act out. Some also develop mental health or behavioural issues. Humans don't seem to judge ourselves by the same criteria.

Encouraging more 'primal' activities relieves anxiety and stress, especially in children. But your sensible punishment is removing a couple of key activities for that allow humans to thrive, excercise and socialisation.

What kind of activities does your DD do indoors? Screen time is probably the worst possible solution, but there are options that play more too human nature. We need to create, and we need to problem solve. Are there any tasks/activities like this that your DD could do whilst grounded?

And now you’re deciding your dd is the difficult child and your elder dd is the easy one and the blame game continues. Can you not see how that isn’t ok? It only creates winners and losers. You say you don’t want to repeat patterns but you are right there.

OP I suspect you were not a difficult child just not one who fell in line

Can you not see the cycle is repeating itself - YOU need to stop it as you are repeating your own childhood which has left you with the sense you were an enigma to your family and a difficult child

How does a child know they are difficult? Children don't think they are difficult children unless adults tell them they are? Children don't usually develop behaviours in a vacuum.

OP I would seriously consider some form of family therapy or similar. I think you have patterns from your childhood that are so ingrained you don't realise they are there. It might as simple as your parent's parenting style suited your DB but didn't work for you. Instead of them recognising that different children might need different approaches they simply blamed you.

I am not repeating any cycle. Dd1 is well behaved most of the time. She is given consequences if she is rude to us or misbehaves. Just like her sister. But that doesn't happen much as she is well behaved most of the time. I am mearly punishing whatever behaviour is presented by either of them.
No cycles or patterns. Just trying to deal with what I have.

How can you not see you have pigeonholed her the same way, she is the difficult child to be punished DD1 the favoured one

I have to say I dont think this is a DH problem or a child issue - I think this is YOU. So many posters on here are giving you good advice and you dont want to hear it.