Nightmare child and dh constantly undermining me.

[Justalittlelemondrizzle]

So dd2 is a nightmare! Her behaviour has become increasingly worse during the last year. Everything is a battle, getting her to school, eating her dinner, going to bed, etc.
About a month ago, after the holiday of a lifetime was marred by her behaviour I decided to be tougher.
This has been met with resistance from H who says I am now treating the dcs differently. Even saying to dd2 tonight "we all know who is mummys favourite" I mean who says that to a 9 year old. I don't have favourites!!
I'm not treating them differently dd1 can be a bit lippy and has her moments but nothing serious. "So obviously the punishments have to reflect the crime" so to speak.
I'm not being overly tough. But I am not letting her get away with treating me like shit anymore. And she is now using him against me.
I can't get him on board. I have tried. He says I'm not fit to be a mother because I wouldnt let her stay up to watch something tonight because of the way she'd just treated me (screaming at me, calling me names and spraying hairspray in mine and dd1s direction!! when I was attempting to dry her hair)

He's saying my punishments are unfair (she's grounded indefinitely until her behaviour improves) this decision wasn't taken lightly. This is after trying everything else for weeks. (Loss of screen time, grounded for an evening etc) these things wernt working. She'd just do her time and behave just as badly the next day, and the cycle would continue over and over again.

I'm trying to be consistent. Im trying to be fair. But I'm being constantly undermined by him and it's giving her more ammunition to behave badly.

Any advice re dd? And him..

That's hard if he won't go for it. You could maybe find a family therapist who would work with you then try to get DH along with DDs for some degree of whole family work. It's certainly far from too late for things to change. Good luck.

I think you need a reset. The stick isn't working - try the carrot!

Take just her out after school tomorrow, for an ice cream or something. Have a nice chat. Tell her all the things you like about her. Make sure she knows you love her. Ask her about the things going on her life and how she feels about everything.

Once you've done that, try and get her agreement to try and improve one aspect of her behaviour (ie screaming and calling you names). Say she can have 5p for every day she manages to do this for the next month.

Can I just add - my son was considered a perfect student by his teachers - and yet I would have a nightmare with him at home. He focussed so hard on being the perfect student at school - the stress would build up and he would be difficult at home. He also got diagnosed with high functioning ASD - his teachers did not realise he had it. I went on numerous parenting courses etc and nothing worked until he was diagnosed and then his behaviour at home made sense. His therapist said that children about the age of 8 start realising they are part of the bigger world and that bigger world looks scary so their anxieties increase at this age.

This book is excellent, see if you can borrow it from your library or buy a second hand copy.

I think that was hugely unfair mighty

I never came on here expecting sympathy or for people to tell me what a good mum I am.
I've clearly gone wrong somewhere. I've tried to give you all a clear picture.

I am certainly not a toxic mother and her "welfare" is not in question. Wow!
For what it's worth. She knows I am disappointed with her, she knows I hate her behaviour. But she also knows I love her and want her to be happy. And that everything I do. I do for her.

He focussed so hard on being the perfect student at school - the stress would build up and he would be difficult at home

I was going to say the same

DS is Dyslexic and struggled at school as some children have a ceiling (coping with school upto a turning point)

DD HFA is the same

She appears to be highly jealous of her sister and siblings can react and make things worse - it then appears you hang up!!

Been there (still here!!!!)

Take her to be assessed if you can and I would suggest maybe some anger management to start with

OH and then ignoring thing really works wonders - rather than become an arguement

You can't change he bit you can change your reaction to her behaviour

Well said again mylittleboopeep!

OP has come for advice because she cares. A lot of comments on here that prove the thread hasn't been read as OP has repeated herself several times. She's probably more stressed out about her situation after reading some of the "advice" on here. Her posts are coming across angry because she IS angry and upset and wants to put things right. This does not mean she speaks to DD2 this way.

It can happen to anyone OP. Is there any chance there could be something medically wrong? Perhaps get her a GP appointment for a general check up? Ur OH is out of order undermining u. This would infuriate me. Children are more intelligent than a lot of ppl give them credit for.

It's probably for the best that no one is babysitting her from ur extended family so u can eliminate certain stress factors and get to the real root of the problem.

I'm sorry I couldn't be more help, good luck and keep ur chin up. U will get through this.

ittakes2 I was wondering the same thing the more I read through the thread. Been there,got the Tshirt. I do think the OP's dd might benefit from professional help /assessment /therapy.

Challenging behaviour puts an enormous strain on a family, even if it's no one's 'fault'.

I have anxiety and at your daughter's age and in my teen years it caused me to behave in a very similar way to your daughter.
I didn't understand what was making me so irritable and angry and as a result I found very difficult to control my anger or explain it to anyone else.

I think the key to helping your daughter control her behaviour is to help her understand why she is angry.

I think anger management counselling for her and parenting classes for you and your husband are the best way forward.

Take no offence at the comments made by mighty.

There are posters who come on these threads just to make ludicrous comments because they themselves are attention seekers.

The majority of sane mothers on here are not for one moment thinking your DD is a "welfare case"

And for clarity, the comment I made upthread about women on here being unjted , did not mean simply agreeing with each other. I meant united in offering sensible support. There are too many people who come on these threads all judgy when in truth if any of us were in the same boat as OP we would all be feeling as she is right now.

I am going to hold up my hands here and admit that I'm pretty sure I would not be able to cope anywhere near as well as the OP seems to be coping.

I am also thinking this behaviour is routed in something going on at school. If she is underachieving and has no control over this, is she looking for things in her life that she can control?

Just a thought and probably wrong but first call would be school. They must have pastoral care dept. Perhaps she would talk to them.

Your attitude to your DH doesn't make sense. You blame your DD for your relationship problems then call your DH a 'dick' and say you're the only one that can see what's going on.
Your family has a pattern of scapegoating. You know they prefer your other DD. Yet you use them to care for both girls even though you know how damaging that dynamic can be.
You have had lots of good suggestions. Until you acknowledge your role in all of this, nothing is going to improve.

I think the comments here are good and useful. We all blow it as parents at times and that is when we ask for help.

Family therapy can be excellent. My nephew was impossible until my sister took him to family therapy and they really managed to turn the whole situation around.

I'm blaming her behaviour. Her behaviour is what has caused a massive rift with extended family who now will not babysit her.
I am not blaming her for any problems in my marriage. Dh is being a dick. He is immature and will do anything for an easy life. Which is why she thinks she can get away with behaving this way.
My family have basically washed their hands off of her. I've had countless conversations with them about this. She is only 9.
She is very smart and quite manipulative. At the moment she is using dh against me because I am 'bad cop'. Unbeknown to him. He just can't see what she's doing. He's an absolute dick

OP, you say both that you aren't blaming her for your marital problems but that your 9 year old dd is also consciously using your husband against you? You clearly admit that your own mother treated you the way it seems that you are treating her and the rest of your family is treating her. She is 9! How could she possibly have treated everyone "like shit" to the point that everyone thinks it's ok to make her the scapegoat which is exactly what you are doing to her even if you don't recognize it as that. I'm sure that she does! Counseling for everyone would certainly help at this point! Don't just agree to start over every morning with her, do it! Starting over doesn't mean only HER behavior changes you know.

I’ve just RTFT and I’m at some of the responses.

DH isn’t around most of the time due to work, but sees fit to undermine OP and storm out of the house (causing DD2 to kick off at OP and not him), and is making sly little comments like “we know who Mummy’s favourite is don’t we?” and it’s OP getting all the stick? This place has changed!

OP, I hear what you’re saying and I understand what you’re trying to do. Unless he gets a grip of himself and starts to support you, nothing will change. Because as long as he’s there, chipping away and encouraging your DD2 to do these things, you’ll always be undermined.

I don’t think you write as a mother who dislikes her child, I think you write as a Mum at the end of her tether with her behaviour and lack of support from your DH. I also think your family have been very unfair. “Not their problem” is very emotive, and they need to remember that she is a child. Writing her off is unhelpful and unkind. It also kind of feels like they’re offering you no support either.

So you’re on your own, being undermined by your DH, not supported by your family and trying to help DD2 change her behaviour, while protecting your DD1 from that behaviour. Is my potted summary.

No wonder you’re stressed!! Can you ask for CAHMS involvement, it sounds like DD2 is struggling at the moment and with the best will in the world won’t listen to you until she realises you’re doing it for her benefit. An outside perspective/pressure release for her may be a good thing. Your DH needs to get a fucking grip on himself. If DP ever undermined me so blatantly to our children he wouldn’t be my DP for long (it goes both ways, I wouldn’t undermine him either)

I think you’ve had a rough ride on this thread OP. So many threads now seem to just attack the OP and blindly defend the husband and I’ve no idea why. Especially when yours is being so unfair to you and also to your DDs. He’s excluding DD1 from what you say, and encouraging DD2 to keep up the behaviour. What does that say about him?

Actually the fact YOU come from a toxic family makes it MORE likely. Why have you (plural I inc your dh in that assuming he knows what they're like) used those SAME people for childcare? I too come from a toxic family like hell would they have minded my child unsupervised!

As you've grounded her indefinitely - you've nowhere to go now if her behaviour is bad. It's a ridiculous punishment which I think you know but have mentally locked in to defending. Regarding praise v criticism I believe it requires 3-4 pieces of praise to counter every piece of criticism so you need to bear that in mind too. That doesn't mean NOT criticising/highlighting bad behaviour but the focus needs to be on the GOOD behaviour.

You studiously avoided suggestions of counselling/parenting courses until quite late in the thread - why?

I too am reading a VERY angry mother who is blaming a 9 year old child for a multitude of things that aren't her responsibility and has made no effort to find out WHY this behaviour started.

It could be hormones, but it could also be bullying, abuse, assault (inc a trauma like encountering eg a flasher or someone else being bullied), I'm not familiar with English school system is she facing sats soon?, does she get on with her teacher?, has she fallen out with a close friend?, had her first crush and been disappointed/teased? - tons of reasons why her behaviour could have changed.

"They've always been closer to dd1 though" then it's quite possible even likely that there's been an incident where YET AGAIN Dd1 was favoured and dd2 has (understandably!) had enough! Your denial of the facts ISN'T helping. It IS scapegoating and again makes me wonder WHY you chose to use them for childcare.

You're the only one that can "see" that a 9 year old girl is according to you SO bad she needs grounded INDEFINITELY, manipulative, divisive, attention seeking... Jesus listen to yourself!! Now you're saying she's lazy at school - have you even considered that she doesn't bother cos it feels like nobody cares? That there's no point? How does her sister do at school? Or even that there's something like dyslexia involved?

"He focussed so hard on being the perfect student at school - the stress would build up and he would be difficult at home" also possible

"hundreds I was asked how she was at school." And the VERY first things you said were NEGATIVE.

There's definitely a reset and MUCH better less emotive communication needed. Between the parents, the adults and children. Do the 2 children get along?

Parenting classes at least, therapy would be better. Have you spoken to school re possible stressors?

She sounds exactly like my daughter a year before we finally got an ADHD diagnosis.

Before that, escalating aggressive behaviour, didn't care, couldn't be punished etc. Got all the "oh she's just difficult to parent", got all the judgement from family, DH's whole family refused to look after her.

The change post diagnosis and meds is amazing, she still has a pretty short fuse, but can work on it, and can understand why she is that way.

Your 'gentle punishments' listed above go way beyond what I consider my 'harsh punishments'. My gentle punishment is losing the iPad for half an hour, not a few days. Actually I don't go in much for rewards and punishments. I understand kids generally want to please and if they are constantly falling short of expectations this is usually either because the expectations are unrealistic or because there is a "lagging skill" preventing the child from managing the expectation.
Indefinite grounding until behaviour improves is not a measurable or realistic target. How long does behaviour need to be consistent for? You said she's great 50percent of the time so her behaviour has improved from being bad at some points, but obviously not enough for whatever mental goal you have selected. "Better behaviour" is so vague. A clearer aim might be "speak without yelling for one evening". The time periods involved MUST be short enough that she starts to experience some success. I would lay right off with "I love you but hate your behaviour" as well. Just leave it as "I love you'.

If your dh was posting here, what would he say? He obviously feels that you favour the other DD and are being too harsh.

Have a look at the "reframe the behaviour" graphic. In fact much of Ross Greene would be helpful. You are falling down the left side, assuming your dd2 is choosing to behave badly, and ramping up the punishments. It's a negative cycle.

Greene's book "the explosive child" is a useful tool to teach rigid children how to negotiate and compromise. Might be useful.

I will say again you have never looked at why

But I think this has happened, I think you were always the less favoured child, the enigma so when you had children you desperately wanted them to fit in and DD1 did. DD2 started to and then she started showing behaviour that your family was disapprove of (violence in year 1) and you were devastated and came down hard. Your gentle punishments are harsh and punitive because you panicked and wanted it to stop.

By this point DD2 at least subconsciously is starting to realise this, that she will never be DD1 so she stops trying. Soon she realises that she is seen negatively by her maternal family and DD1 is favoured so she starts to fulfil what they think.

Family therapy for you and her is essential.

The unclear bit is your DH it’s hard because it’s unclear whether your childhood causes you to overreact to bad behaviour so you see it worse or whether he isn’t bothered.

I know exactly how you feel OP, my DD is 11 but the same behaviour.

She’s obviously having a really tough time but doesn’t know why she acts the way she does. It’s like she can’t stop until she’s upset someone, usually me but DH and DS cop it almost as much.

We’ve also just been on a really special holiday, where every day she had to push against what we were doing, even though it was all things she wanted to do! Again, once she snapped out of it, she couldn’t say why she’d acted that way.

I could also describe her attitude to school the same, she just doesn’t try. With school, I’m pretty sure she feels like it’s the same kids that are ‘good’ at everything, so why bother trying because they’ll always be better. Could your DD be feeling something like this?

She’s been seeing a psychologist for the last 8 months and while I haven’t noticed any improvement in her behaviour, we do have some coping/distraction strategies in place that were given to us by her psychologist.

Oldbirdy I get what you are saying but when you say that if her DH was posting here what would he say? You say he believes she is being too harsh. So, in that case why doesn't he sit down with OP and together come up with a strategy they can both agree on. Instead his reaction is to make stupid remarks and undermine her.

I think OP that this problem has more to do with your DH than anything. DC's only need to see a hair's width of difference in agreement between DP's parenting and they're off like a rocket, playing one off against the other. It's happened in pretty much everyone's house at some point.

Why is everyone assuming that because OP came from a family with some problems that this is the problem here, or rather she has caused this? I think OP has clearly outlined her own family's issues and I'm certain she has brought her two DC's up with this in mind, doing everything to avoid a repeat of this.

OP it's a new week, if you only do one proactive thing today, call the school for an appointment. You can absolutely do this with the right method in place. Most are mums on here with no professional qualifications in behaviour. We can offer our tips but you need experts not amateurs (including myself in that btw) to really sort this out. Oh and a massive kick up DH's backside to wake him up.

I think history is repeating itself. I would not be happy with family scapegoating dd2. She seems to be kicking back about something. Could there be something that's gone on without your knowledge. Having a much loved older sibling is angering if you are the bad guy. Could it be this, my adult DD still thinks she was least favoured even though I would say the opposite was the case , imv she was the most difficult and demanding so got more of everything but not in her eyes.

Beryl no, there's no regret. Unless there's a consequence. We've spoken about it afterwards and she always says she doesn't know why she did it? When I ask her what made her angry, sometimes what she says happened didn't happen, other times she comes out with a completely trivial thing.

It sounds as though you're trivialising her feelings here. And in several of your posts you talk about how awful she is, when she doesn't sound awful to me: just a nine year old child who feels that everything around her is out of control, with her parents arguing and her mum being really hard on her and refusing to listen to her feelings. And the only way she gets attention is when she's obnoxious.

I agree with the others who have said you're being too hard on her.

I have never banned iPads etc. for more than an afternoon. I've never grounded my children for more than a few days. Grounding her "forever" means she has no hope of things improving.

Can you try being kind to her?

Yes boopeep, and there are posters who think the only way to be constructive is to go ‘oh OP, you’re wonderful and this is all somebody else’s fault’ because they think they’re being so lovely and nice but they’re actually giving shit advice which will make the situation ten times worse. Because they couldn’t actually give a shit about the OP or their family they just want to virtue signal about how ‘nice’ they are.

OP, I wasn’t suggesting that your daughter is a ‘welfare case’. I was just pointing out that posters like boopeep don’t care about her welfare and are more concerned with making you feel good than they are with her welfare because they would prefer to agree with you and tell you your daughter is awful when clearly 9 year olds don’t become like this on their own and don’t have potential to be better children.

I think a starting point would be to discuss this with your husband. Yes, you are getting the usual crowd of MN posters who rush to blame every problem on the DH. But in this case it appears that he has reservations about your parenting. As the relationship between you and DD is going really wrong and he has seen it at first hand (unlike posters on here) there is a strong chance he might have a point and you should listen to what he has to say.

Another thing that some posters have touched on is that you appear to have gone into a constant cycle of punishment with DD. If a child feels that regardless of what they do they’re going to be punished anyway they are going to have no incentive to behave better. Ditto if they are labelled ‘a nightmare child’ and someone who ‘treats people like shit’. At 9 years old children are responding to their surroundings and how they are treated rather than being inherently naughty or bad and you need to identify what is going wrong here.

So, yes, family therapy is the best way forward. It does sound like you are repeating a cycle of behaviour that you have learned from your family without realising because you’ve internalised it so much. You’re not doing something intentionally bad or wrong, but you have fallen into cycles of destructive behaviour based on your own childhood and you need help working out how to change these and get out of them

To put it another way, if you asked your mother why she played favourites and scapegoated you, I imagine she would probably deny it but if pushed claim that it was your fault because you were such a difficult or naughty child and despite her best efforts you were just naughty and difficult and made her life hard so you brought on yourself. Sound familiar?

It also might be constructive for you to try and remember how you felt when you were in her place. Did you try and defend yourself by explaining why your mother was wrong? Was this interpreted as argumentativeness? Or trying to keep quiet and out of her way interpreted as sullenness and sulking? Did you feel frustrated and resentful and did that affect your behaviour? If your siblings or parent tried to defend you did your DM accuse you of causing friction between her and the rest of the family?

I really think you need to sit down and have an honest think about the parallels between your situation and hers without using the cop out of saying you’re justified because she’s just an inherently bad child. That’s the excuse every parent who scapegoats uses.