Inheritance angst - shocked & angry

[hoopyloopy2]

MIL died like last year and we are just getting to grips now with the details of her estate. FIL died 13 years ago.

To cut a long story short, it’s emerged that she gave a very large amount of money (hundreds of thousands of pounds) to BIL a few years’ ago after he divorced and to enable him to start his own business. DH and I have never received money from his parents - in fact we didn’t even know she had that kind of money.

It’s become clear that DH’s other brother has also received financial support over the years but nowhere near the same level. DH is certainly not more financial comfortable than the other two now or in the past - so there’s no logic as to why he/we were overlooked. Their mum did play favourites over the years, but there was no rift or issue (that we know of) that would explain why she should have skewed things in such an extreme way.

DH has confronted BIL after working all this out by going through years of bank accounts. BIL says it was a loan that he was intending to pay back at some point, but he hasn’t. Issue now is whether this is taken into account when dividing up the estate, DH & I think it should be as amounts to 2/3rds of her savings. MIL did not suggest it should be in her will. But it is SUCH a significant amount of money. BIL is embarrassed & defensive at being found out, and is implying DH is being nosey by going through their mum’s bank accounts in detail - ridiculously.

To put things in context, DH and I are in a financially unstable situation now. He isn’t working after being made redundant several months ago, for the 3rd time in a few years, all very stressful & difficult. I work but we cannot survive on my salary alone. DH has become disillusioned with his line of work and would dearly love the kind of financial support that BIL was given to make choices -ie start his own business or make a career change. We would never have dreamt of asking his mum to bail us out while she was alive though. But it seems BIL had no such qualms - this has shocked us both.

So are we BU to ask for this large payment to BIL to be recognised in how the estate is now divvied up? Ie that he gets a lot less as a result. I know their mum was entitled to spend her money as she liked, so there is no legal case here. I am worried that asking will cause major upsets & divisions but at the same time, it feels profoundly unfair & will fester with DH (and me) if we just let this go.

OP you say it's a loan- in that case it's fine because he will effectively owe that much to her estate.

Unless you are using that term incorrectly and it was a gift.

If it was a loan there will be a loan agreement signed, otherwise you are at the mercy of the goodwill of the other beneficiaries.

This will already cause a rift in the family so I don't understand why people are saying the OP should keep quiet for the sake of peaceful family relations. I'm sure her dh won't feel the same way about his two brothers, whatever the outcome.

Hi Hoopy,

I rarely post but wanted to let you know that I completely understand how you feel. Lots of people will come on and say 'her money her choice 'etc. Easy to say. I wonder if people who say that have been in your position.
Life is unfair but we ( foolishly) expect our family to at least attempt to be open and as fair as possible. It's a hard lesson when you find out about secret help given to one or two siblings while others are kept in the dark. It certainly makes you aware , if you weren't already, that your parents have feet of clay.
Yes I'm in a similar position and I thank God for my own family and now see my birth family ( deliberate choice of words) for what they are.

If he says it was a loan then it is probably included in the will be default ‘the rest of my estate etc’ of course bil could deny this and then you won’t have a leg to stand on- if probably take this approach and see what he does to be honest, especially if it’s in the last 7 years so at least he might get done for tax if he calls it a gift ... (if he hadn’t said it was a loan you would probably have to leave it although still need to look at whether the gift triggers inheritance tax)

Am often surprised by the inheritance threads on MN. Of course it is to do with the OP. Normal people, in strong, healthy relationships think of money as being 'theirs', as a couple because if one is being evicted, then the whole family are out. If one is living in a beautiful family home, then the whole family do. It's called being a family. Of course it matters if her dh feels things haven't been recorded fairly.

I think the crucial thing here is that BiL said "it was a loan that he was intending to pay back at some point, but he hasn’t." Now is clearly the time he should and that should be made clear to him. He is the one who has said those words, so there is no dispute.
However, I'm talking morally. I am no lawyer, so sadly can't advise on what the law would say.

So are we BU to ask for this large payment to BIL to be recognised in how the estate is now divvied up? Ie that he gets a lot less as a result. I know their mum was entitled to spend her money as she liked, so there is no legal case here. I am worried that asking will cause major upsets & divisions but at the same time, it feels profoundly unfair & will fester with DH (and me) if we just let this go.

YANBU

Inheritance and money in families is more than money - it's symbolic of love and care and concern. And power /status within the family.

Your DH must feel shut out of that and wondering why his mother didn't care for him as much as his brothers.

It's all very well saying, "If you don't ask, you don't get" but it's not really normal or caring to give so much to one child and not the others.

Is your DH the eldest? It's typical that eldest children get on with it and cope, while the favourite is usually the 2nd or the youngest child.

As others have said, if MIL had wanted the "loan" taken into account, she would have specified it in her will.

In my experience a lot of people don't like to think about these things and just hope it will all work itself out. She might well have intended to go to her solicitor and get this sorted, but like many of us just left it for another day. Or she might have just trusted that the siblings would sort it out.

Only BiL knows on what terms the money was paid over and he is saying it was a loan so it feels as if its worth holding him to that.

He might not have realised at the time that the money was such a large % of the estate or that the other siblings hadn't had similar support. Maybe he needs a bit of time to accept that he owes the estate more than he is due to receive from it.

It’s not a question of whether you abide by her wishes in the will - of course you do. She left her estate divided three ways. Any money loaned by her and owed to her is part of that estate, exactly as it would be if she was in credit to her electric supplier. BIL has admitted the money was a loan so legally it’s pretty straightforward.

Bil himself has said it was a loan, so it was a loan. If there is no proof in writing, though, it is all dependent on siblings' goodwill to enforce it, as bil could easily change his tune. Whether a gift or loan, your dh would be a lousy executor not to investigate the last 7 years' worth of bank statements, though, if hundreds of thousands of pounds have been part of the deceased's estate in the last 7 years, because of the inheritance tax rules - you need to be certain of the amount and whether it goes over the threshold. I doubt any of the siblings want to end up in deep shit with HMRC for lying to them!

From the maths you are getting 100,000 just from the estate; isn’t that enough?

hmm technically you could say its actually MIL business...

Get proper advice from a solicitor. Don't listen to some of the ill informed commentators here. If BIL has acknowledged it was a loan treat it as such. If he changes his mind then deal with it then. It is quite possible for someone to make a will and then make a loan afterwards.

A poster mentioned above the presumption against double portions.

There is a legal presumption that the parent would not intend to treat one child preferentially to the other children. A lifetime gift may therefore be regarded as a payment on account of that child’s entitlement under the Will.

Worth taking legal advice as this may apply.

I think some pertinent questions got lost in my first, lengthy post...

When was the loan given? When was the will written?

Did MIL die suddenly, or die young?

Is it reasonable she expected the loan to have been repaid before she died?

Is it reasonable that she might have thought she had time in future to amend the will t account for the loan?

Your BIL has stated that it was a loan that he intended to pay back so now it’s just up to him to work out what he thinks is the right thing to do. I couldn’t live with myself if my siblings went without after I had received a big lump sum intended as a loan. However, your MIL’s wishes should be respected and not challenged so it just comes down to what your BIL feels is the right thing to do.

My DM has just given my brother a substantial amount of money as a loan. It suddenly dawned on her that it was never going to get paid back in her lifetime. She has changed her will to say that he will have this deducted from his inheritance. Although she hasn’t listed the endless handouts she gives his family eg paying their mortgage for a year, I could go on. There’s nothing I can object to, it’s her money and her choice on how to spend it. Although I now have to listen to how she needs to watch her money.

Think in your situation all you can do is wait and see what your BIL decides to do. Although I’m cross that my brother has taken a lot of my mum’s retirement money I wouldn’t fall out over it. After all she didn’t have to give them the money, she chose to.

This happened to me. My granny lent me £10k to buy our house a few years back (on top of £15k she gave us at the same time) and said “take it out of your pot when I die” - as in, it was a loan.

No one else knew so I could have kept schtum but I didn’t, and we shared things out so I got £10k less than my brother. I knew that was what she would have wanted so I did it.

Not quite the same as £200k but same principle. People do go a bit crazy about wills. Maybe leave it a week or two and then just raise it again.

Yes, legal advice!

I think that the loans/gifts to both should be taken into account to avoid future bitterness.

Also I think it's important for all involved to consider what FIL would have wanted as well as what MIL might have wanted as he also presumably had a part in the generation of the wealth. Did FIL have a will that expressed an intention that things should ultimately be divided more equally?

Was the amount given to the BIL mentioned in the MIL's will and if so, was it identified as a loan? If so then I assume the BIL will need to pay it back; if not, then he is under no legal obligation to do so. You may say there is a moral obligation but unless he agrees then you have no chance of forcing him.

Has the BIL been left any additional money in the will? If so, maybe you could nudge his conscience about not accepting it and splitting it between the two other siblings?

chocatoo, whilst that is probably the nice option, it's incredibly naive and simplistic.

• There's no evidence this was a loan.

• There's no mention in the will it is to be considered.

• The 2 brothers who've received money don't appear to have any intention of factoring this into the split of the inheritance.

• All 3 brothers know that the others are aware of what has happened previously.

There's nowhere to go really.

You cannot lend give hundreds of thousands of pounds to someone without a tax liability if it's not repaid.
More bollocks

you can give away anything you like
and if you are very rich and can prove it does not affect your lifestyle,
you can buy cars and houses for people as gifts
with no tax liability
ever

If BIL received such a large amount from MIL just a few years ago it will fall within 7 year rule - ie it will still form part of estate for inheritance tax purposes. If BIL admits it was a loan then surely this should be taken off any amount he inherits? Who are the executors?

TalkinPeece

you can give away anything you like
and if you are very rich and can prove it does not affect your lifestyle,
you can buy cars and houses for people as gifts
with no tax liability
ever

You can give away anything you like providing it is from income and not savings. Unless MIL had a huge pension £100k+ is likely to have come from savings and as such will form part of the estate and be declared for probate and inheritance tax purposes.

I agree you should get legal advice. Maybe mediation if both brothers agree to it.

It's not hundreds of pounds, it's hundreds of thousands. And having a legal point of view it's better for their relationship than to try and sort it between themselves.

I'll bet the loan was given after the will was written - in which case it is interesting that one poster has said the law does sometimes regard a lifetime gift as a payment on account, as whilst parents can be deliberately underhand in order to benefit one child over another, it is more often the case that they foolishly assume everyone will be reasonable when they die and that it's enough that the will shows they intended to be even handed...