That many people believe they are pro choice but are not

[winterstail]

My understanding of pro choice is that you support a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy.

Many people claim to be pro choice but then express shock at the reason a woman chooses to terminate.

This isn't pro choice then, is it?

pro choice to me means supporting a woman's choice to continue a pregnancy, terminate a pregnancy or have the baby and put it up for adoption with no conditions attached

This is something a lot of anti abortionists can't seem to grasp
They seem to think pro choice means forced abortions

Thank you @Jampasty.
It's funny, I've posted many times on similar threads and never been acknowledged, no one ever talks to me or asks questions.
It's like they agree with it, or don't, as a concept but don't want to support the reality, which unfortunately I know only too well.

I’m 100% pro choice. I believe a woman should be granted the legal right to have an abortion- at any stage, for any reason- but as early as possible, as late as necessary

shrug. We’re not your idea of pro choice but our own then.

In the main I do trust women. I think most women think deeply about their decision unless it’s such a no brainer there is no need. I think most women are able to take responsibility for their reproductive health and even those who don’t deserve a get out. I think even those who make the decision callously and with minimum thought and repeatedly do so are probably doing the right thing as they’re not exactly mother material at that time. I trust most women to deal with it in a timely manner.

However I’ve been on a SCBU and would like to see the abortion limit lowered after seeing babies below the current limit who are very much alive.

I don’t agree with the concept that abortion should be available on demand right up to the moment of birth because ‘women should be trusted’.

I generally trust women, but I don’t trust all women. Some women are selfish, stupid, nasty, callous, spiteful and even downright evil. I don’t think you should make a blanket ‘trust women’ status up until birth as some of them shouldn’t be trusted to make decisions which aren’t cruel or spiteful or selfish. And when a foetus becomes able to survive on it’s own it deserves protection from decisions against it’s welfare.

I support abortion but I also support laws which recognise that at some point the foetus becomes a human being capable of surviving on it’s own which deserves protection.

If that means I’m not pro choice, so be it.

@SemperIdem

Why bring the law into it? Irish law and English (UK) law are very different so only one can be correct with your reasoning.

How about an abortion because of the sex of the baby / fetus but within legal time constraints?

I find it impossible to believe that you wouldn't judge or think this ok.

There is nothing wrong with having the ability to see nuance in an argument, legal, moral or otherwise.

We have manslaughter, murder and self defence, for example.

@Korg

Pro-choice only has one meaning:

advocating the legal right of a woman to choose whether or not she will have an abortion.

What a lot of posters end up doing is saying ‘I’m pro choice but only if we can add x, y or z clause’ - that’s changing the definition of pro-choice to suit that individual’s believes and it is no longer being prochoice.

You can disagree with someone’s reasons for abortion but if you are pro-choice you can’t start adding caveats to suit your own beliefs.

I am pro choice with no qualifications.
Very late abortions are so extremely rare that I can only imagine extreme emotional / psychological or health reasons. No healthy / healthy-minded woman willingly makes a sudden decision to terminate post 24 / 28 weeks.

I understand those who take the view that life is sacrosanct from the moment of conception, but I have no patience with anyone who decides that some women or circumstances are ‘deserving ‘ of a termination (choice) and others are not, depending on circumstances of pregnancy. Should women be obliged to stay pregnant and have an innocent baby as a punishment?

A woman, any woman, must have complete choice about what happens within her body.

And requiring two doctors to sign is a complete waste of our resources. A counsellor and a well trained nurse should be able to dispense the medical abortion, IMO.

However I’ve been on a SCBU and would like to see the abortion limit lowered after seeing babies below the current limit who are very much alive.

Very much alive with intense medical intervention you mean?

@Mightymucks so you would rather women that are selfish,callous,evil,stupid,nasty and downright evil to have a baby they don't want? Such an awesome life that baby will have.

I am pregnant and just reading the info leaflets of screening for Edwards syndrome. I googled it. I feel very fortunate to live in the uk, not Ireland where I would be forced to carry a baby with severe deformities that are rarely comparable with life, to term.

I’m pro choice.

When I read about newborn babies that have been found abandoned in a field/drain/bin I often wonder if that would have happened had abortion been available to her mother regardless of the stage of pregnancy.

There’s a document from Marie stopes about late abortions and shows the instances someone has come to them and whether or not they could have the abortions.

There’s a few upsetting examples where for instance, a young girl who is about to have an arranged marriage had come to them but as she was just past 24 weeks (she had only found out a few days prior) they had to refer her back to her dr. I wonder if that could have had serious repercussions for her or if she considered giving birth alone somewhere and dumping the baby. Also a few examples of very very young girls who were days past the cut off point which meant they were forced to carry to term.

It’s a bit of a straw man to use pre-term babies who can survive with medical intervention as an excuse to lower the limit. What if technological advances mean that they survive from 20 weeks? 18 weeks? 12 weeks? Then what?

Are we just going to punish women for medical progress?

Very late abortions are so extremely rare that I can only imagine extreme emotional / psychological or health reasons.

So would you assume that somebody making that choice was unable to make decisions?

Ethically I think the problem is that after a certain point the person carrying out the abortion would be forced to make a choice about the life of the baby after it had left the mother.

In some ways I think the reference to children in SCBU is a red herring.

A much wanted child receiving medical care should have no bearing on whether a woman is forced to continue with a pregnancy she doesn’t want. The two situations aren’t in any way comparibale

notWithoutFail

Because law does have an impact on actions, generally speaking.

I didn’t say I didn’t judge, I said I support every woman’s right to choose and my value judgement on their circumstances should not play a part in that right.

I'm pro choice in most circumstances.

Acceptable reasons for me would include: rape, abusive relationships, serious illness/disability (mother or child), baby would not survive, parents too young, parents unable to provide stability, failed contraception things like that.

I would be uncomfortable in situations such as termination being used simply as a form of contraception because the parents hadn't bothered to use other forms of contraception.

If my DD got pregnant at say 16, when still at school, not got a job, living at home etc, then I'd prefer for her to have an abortion. People will say its her choice but I'm sorry, I'd drag her there by the hair if I had to and my mother would have done the same. My mum installed the fear of god in me and I was on the pill within a week of getting my first boyfriend (now DH).

I am pro choice up to a certain amount of weeks (12-14 weeks). After that I am pro life, and would only be understanding if the mothers life was at risk.

I'm pro choice but I may seriously disapprove of a choice made.

In the same way that I'm pro freedom of speech but really hate some things that people say.

Ain't life complicated?

YANBU. I'm always fascinated by the undercurrent of judgment on MN threads whenever anyone posts about wishing to terminate a pregnancy; so many posts that seem to toe the pro choice party line but just with certain phrases or opinions dripping with judgment that they can't help expressing and clearly feel that they have the right to, given the subject matter.

but if you are pro-choice you can’t start adding caveats to suit your own beliefs.

Yes you can, just as you can accept that people eat meat, but think it's wrong to keep pigs or chickens in battery conditions. I don't eat meat, but I wouldn't put pressure on other people to agree with my views. However, I'd feel entitled to argue the case for welfare laws. I don't see that the abortion question is that different. I'm not religious, so religion doesn't come into it for me, it's about cruelty. At a certain stage of the pregnancy a foetus is viable. Don't dither around then decide on a late abortion, unless your health or the health of the baby requires a termination. If you leave it too long, then morally I feel you should just have the baby and allow it to be adopted.

Morality always has shades of grey, it's never black and white.

Also notWithoutFail

Clearly Irish law is incorrect - women are not dying due to the English and Welsh legal obsession with protecting a foetus over an adult woman. Nor are women who live here having to travel to different countries to obtain abortions.

Btw, the only reason I'm alive is because I was born in a country where abortion was illegal. I was "lucky" to not end up in a care system that meant mental illness,abuse,disability,living on the streets etc. I was adopted you see... However my adoptive mother was mentally,emotionally and physically abusive, some family members never accepted me because i was "not blood" and "someone else's shit" , my grandfather tried to sexually abuse me at 14. One mother didn't want me and had to have me and one wasn't happy that the baby she picked didn't grew up to be what she wanted.
And still...I was lucky because I didn't end up in the care system and I am grateful for that.

I don't think abortion should be made illegal. But I think I must be on the whole pro-life. I don't think pro choice means you need to support abortion up to term and neither does pro-life mean you are against legal abortion no matter what the circumstances.

@Juells

There is a difference between insisting that you are only pro-choice if certain caveats are met and being pro-choice but disliking someone’s decisions.

You can judge away all you like as long as you are not trying to import those views onto other women’s choices.

impose*