That many people believe they are pro choice but are not

[winterstail]

My understanding of pro choice is that you support a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy.

Many people claim to be pro choice but then express shock at the reason a woman chooses to terminate.

This isn't pro choice then, is it?

I didn't say no woman would ever do it. If they did, thats their choice, not mine.

Its not about women being some perfect noble creatures, what insulting bullshit that is! It doesn't matter if you are the best or worst woman that ever walked the earth, you deserve bodily autonomy either way.

You may feel policing womens bodies and rights is a great idea, I do not.

So doug, which women are you going to extend this to? Tracey Connelly went into prison heavily pregnant. She knew that child was going to be taken away from her immediately. She’d already colluded in the murder of one child and stood and watched while another was raped. Do you think it would be beyond her to have said ‘If I’m not having this baby nobody is’.

At a pub near me a three year old and one year old were locked in their rooms with no care or food and the 3 year old died after eating wall paper and wasn’t found for days because nobody checked on her. She was heavily pregnant and given she could do that I wouldn’t have been surprised if she’d gone down the same route if it was available even before she got caught.

Would you say they were suitable woman to make sensitive emphatic decisions or people whose children and foetuses deserve protection?

Yes there are women who children deserve protection from and when they are capable of surviving on their own they still deserve protection from them.

All our bodies are policed to some extent. Even if a doctor agrees injecting us with unlicensed drugs or beauticians injecting tyre sealant in our butts is is illegal. Because people do a lot of stupid and unpleasant things and the law is there to stop them from doing that.

ALL OF THEM. Which bit is so hard for you to get?

Bodily autonomy should not depend on whether a woman is deemed to be a good person or not.

OF COURSE there are women who CHILDREN need protection from. Born, human, actual children who have lives and personhood and exist. Not FOETUSES inside a womans body.

Come on, this is the very basics.

Well, I broadly (but not totally) think that the UK has the law right. I think that up until a point, a woman should be able to get a termination for any reason. I do believe that a fetus has interests/rights, although those rights are not on par with a living humans rights, and because of this, I wouldn't agree with abortion for non-medical reasons after a certain period (probably somewhere between 20 and 24 weeks). I do think that is is a complex issue.

Do you think that women who want a termination very early in their pregnancy should be allowed to do it almost immediately (possibly same day) out of interest? My opinion is that women should be able to get one very quickly with advice available for those that need it.

ALL OF THEM. Which bit is so hard for you to get?

I understand perfectly. And it’s why I think your point is so dumb. If it extends to all women it’s going to cover women who are nasty, vengeful and violent and would terminate a full term fetus out of spite or callousness.

You may think that terminating a full term fetus for those reasons alone is okay. Fortunately hardly anybody agrees with you and it’s never going to happen.

There is a point where the rights of the baby overtake the rights of the woman...we all just have different ideas of what point this happens at.

Being pro choice is agreeing that woman have the right to choose. You would still be within your rights to choose not to agree with that woman. I think you are confusing pro choice with pro abortion.

The woman from Ireland who died after a late stage abortion at a Marie Stopes clinic bled to death as her uterus was perforated during the procedure. The pregnancy was 22 weeks. How dangerous would terminations be up to birth.

If you are delivered of a still born baby you are required to arrange a funeral.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make user

The woman had to travel home to Ireland
if she'd had the procedure in Ireland she wouldn't have been travelling anywhere and possibly wouldn't have died

The point was that a late stage abortion is not without considerable risk to the mother. A perforated uterus being one example. Bleeding to death being another. Also have the procedure where there is no emergency care on site.

Doug

“Not really, its all just obfuscation to score points. Nobody is looking to change the rules in the UK”

Given how impassioned you are about the absolute right for women to choose to abort to term, I’m surprised you seem so relaxed about U.K. laws which are a million miles from this!

Its an important ideal position, however realism and practicality is more important.
Since I'm one of many people currently trying to help the women of my country get any access at all to abortion, I really have no interest in changing the perfectly practical laws of the UK.

As I've mentioned before in this thread, the hard-line attitude of people who think abortion up to full-term is acceptable is the greatest gift to the ProLifers. That's what will make people who are undecided stay at home on the day, rather than going and voting for a sensible approach. You're just the opposite side of the ProLife coin, so extreme that you put people off.

...and to call a nightmare situation like that 'an important ideal position' is beyond fucking creepy.

How does it put people off when its not something that comes up in conversation, and even if it did would be in context of idealism and not reality?
Anyone pushed to vote against because of my opinion was never going to vote for anyway, it would just be an excuse.
Don't try and blame their abhorrent views on my idealism.

...and to call a nightmare situation like that 'an important ideal position' is beyond fucking creepy

to think that womens rights to bodily autonomy is extremism is pretty fucking creepy actually.

Doug whatever your views are you seem to want to ignore the fact that late term abortions are dangerous for women. One hears horrific tales of what women endure anyway.

I'm Pro-choice, but hate the idea of abortions.
I support the right of a woman to do what's best for her, I think abortions should be available on the NHS, I do not comment or judge women or friends who have abortions.
We need better sex education in schools, and in certain communities. All condoms should be free to everyone. There's much public health can do to lower the number of women needing an abortion but ultimately if a woman wants/needs one it's her choice.
Ireland and Northern Ireland need to change their laws in support of women.

@Ticketsfrom I don't think anyone loves the idea of abortion.
No one wakes up thinking "yaaay I'm having my abortion today ! It's going to be awesome!"

But it is what it is and I for one am glad and grateful that it is legal and available to women that need it.

I've had one and don't like the procedure as such either, who does?
I've read a lot of bullshit about what it entails though, all without the emotions of the woman going through it of course.
I can tell you if you want, mine from start to finish, (and it won't be what you think, as it'll be about me, a woman, who made a difficult decision)

g whatever your views are you seem to want to ignore the fact that late term abortions are dangerous for women. One hears horrific tales of what women endure anyway

Late term pregnancy is dangerous for women, as is birth. Even if it is dangerous, its a womans right to choose if she wants to face that danger.

You're just the opposite side of the ProLife coin, so extreme that you put people off.

Very true... They make a virtue of the simplicity of their stance, when most people see there’s a wider context.

^^ what Windthebobbinup1982 said.

I had a pro-life campaign leaflet put through my door at 8am this morning. I didnt pick it up- my daughters did. They asked what the picture was of- was an alien? I said it was a foetus. When asked further I said it was a matter for another day: they are too young to grasp this concept.

I read the leaflet. Apart from the opinions which each individual is entitled to, I read the rest shaking in anger.

I have given birth to three prems. One of which was three months early.I dont need a leaflet to tell me about development, I'll raise you that hand and write you a sodding book.

The leaflet stated that 'from 20-21st week of pregnancy babies born prematurely can survive outside the womb with expert care'.

Where the fuck is this expert care? Where is the science behind this?

Or are we realistically saying that a foetus at this gestation could be delivered and kept alive by artificial method (doubtful. So, so doubtful) but hey! thats okay.

Screw the mother- shes just a vessel.

I have so many opinions about repealing the eighth amendment. The biggest one is is that of equal right to life.

Its crap. One is established and will remember this for the rest of hers.

Try and justify that one.

Nobody 'wins' here.

Bananas
I can't understand how you agree with windthebobbin
I'm not sure you've read their previous posts
They are very anti choice

You're just the opposite side of the ProLife coin, so extreme that you put people off.

You mean they might "peak pro-choice" and turn against the whole thing because of the positions some of the people on that side take? I think there is little evidence of that happening.

And it is not as if people are trying to make late-term abortions compulsory. It is more like if someone wants to do this, and if they can find a doctor willing to assist, then no interference.