That many people believe they are pro choice but are not

[winterstail]

My understanding of pro choice is that you support a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy.

Many people claim to be pro choice but then express shock at the reason a woman chooses to terminate.

This isn't pro choice then, is it?

Surely it would be possible for someone asking for a late abortion, post 24 weeks, to give up the parental rights which she doesn’t want anyway, and allow the baby to be adopted. Despite what has been said there are very few babies available for adoption. It wouldn’t deny the woman her right to choose, she would have made the same choice, not to have a baby. The only difference would be that the baby taken from her body would be alive and would not have been killed in utero

That reduces a woman to no more than a medical vessel to keep a foetus alive.

If a woman doesn’t want a baby, she shouldn’t have to give birth to a baby.

I fully support a woman's right to not be pregnant anymore if she doesn't want to be, for whatever reason.

There's a lot of good/bad abortion talk here.

That reduces a woman to no more than a medical vessel to keep a foetus alive.

This^^, absolutely vile scenario.

Bop I agree. I work in reproductive medicine including fetal medicine. This includes terminations up to the the legal limit and also feticide which is legal up to term for certain reasons.

I am absolutely pro choice and consider myself very fortunate to not have been in any sort of difficult decision making process myself.

@bophopandstop

There's a lot of good/bad abortion talk here.

That's because it's about morality, and people have different opinions on when/why to abort. People are allowed to have a different opinion to you.

I think there should be a death penalty, but I accept that there isn't. Other people consider that viewpoint immoral.

YANBU OP.

Either women are humans or they're not. Either women have equal rights to not merely men but to corpses or we don't. If you think there should be one single restriction on abortion, you think women are less deserving of rights than a corpse.

Feel bad all you like, but that shouldn't be the basis of the law.

There is no legitimate reason to put foetuses before women. Put your own foetus first - leave other women out of it. No, not even disabled foetuses are worth more than their mothers - not even asian women are worth less than their foetuses (it's so racist to think either that asian women should have less rights or that you improve the lot of asian women by making special laws against them btw!!) - all women deserve equal or better rights to corpses, nothing on earth would get me to budge from that because I actually think I and all women should have better rights than a dead body.

No-one's "allowed an opinion" about me being less deserving of bodily autonomy than a dead person

I vehemently disagree with the abortion limit based on viability outside the womb theory, which has been used multiple times on this thread as support for the 24 week limit or for lowering that limit as 23-weekers can now be kept alive. To me this is irrelevant. Let’s say you have a woman who is 23 weeks pregnant and has chosen to have an abortion for non-medical reasons (currently legal in the U.K.). Do you a) force her to remain pregnant against her will for another 17 ish weeks to give birth to a healthy baby she doesn’t want or b) allow labour to be induced so that she gives birth to a live baby? And if b), then what?

My ds spent 2 months in SCBU at the same time as a premature baby who never had any visitors. Her Mum was seriously ill in other hospital - I don’t know what the deal was with the dad / other relatives. She spent most of the time making this very quiet weird whimpering sound. The nurses tried to cuddle her when they could but were obviously rushed off their feet most of the time. I spent weeks sat cuddling / feeding my baby in the same bay as her wishing I could pick her up too, it was heart breaking. And then who will adopt the 23-seeker with likely some consequent health problems when they are ready to leave hospital? When medical technology advances so that we can keep babies alive at 20 weeks, or 15 weeks, or develop artificial wombs, what will the limit be then?

I am fully pro choice and believe in a woman’s right to abortion at any stage for any reason. For full disclosure, I have two children, was very ill in my first pregnancy and have fortunately never been in a position where I had to consider termination.

which has been used multiple times on this thread as support for the 24 week limit or for lowering that limit as 23-weekers can now be kept alive

What about 35 weeks?

Abortion at any time means any time. Does a woman have a choice of an abortion, or does she have a right to an early c-section?

Peopl are free to believe that the right-to-life begins at whatever point they morally judge it to begin - viability, sentience, conception.

But if you do support a limitation based on your own moral judgment on when right-to-live begins, you need to be careful of the arguments you use against people who support an earlier limit based on theis.

I have seen people who support limits at viability talk about the wrongness of those with earlier limits 'imposing their morality on others' or asserting 'her body, her choice' etc etc. Now they are being contradictory.

@merrymouse there’s a very big difference between having an early abortion, having a late abortion due to external factors and having an elective c-section.

To suggest all are the same infantalises the discussion.

To suggest all are the same infantalises the discussion

I actually think far from infantilising the discussion it is a fascinating angle to consider this from.

Abortion means the abortion of a pregnancy, doesn’t it. So at the point where that foetus could be viable outside of the womb, is an early c-section a suitable and moral alternative - a way to abort the pregnancy without aborting the child.

Is abortion about a woman’s right to no longer be pregnant, or a woman’s right to not become a mother?

A man does not get the option about whether her becomes a father or not after conception. Should a woman be entitled to make that decision once the foetus has the potential to be a viable human baby?

Very interesting.

Pro choice upto 12 weeks. Then only for medical reasons upto 20 weeks.
24 week limit is too high imo.

And if the 'other' is 12 and didn't know?
Or is a refugee who has been raped leaving her home and unable to access abortion?
What if you do not know you are pregnant until 13 weeks?

I totally do not understand the 'it OK later if it's for rape' , if you don't want to be pregnant why is it worse if it is rape? Is being forced to have a baby a suitable punishment for a woman who has been naughty enough to have sex?

Or how do you gauge rape? Do we wait until after the trail and the baby is 1 year old? Do you just accept a woman's word? Well I'm sure if you are desperate you can lie. What about rape without a conviction?

@NotTakenUsername you’re completely right. I read that comment and didn’t consider it from that perspective.

I’m currently thinking so much about the eight amendment repeal. I know which way I’ll vote but everything you said is so correct.

@merrymouse there’s a very big difference between having an early abortion, having a late abortion due to external factors and having an elective c-section.

I'm not saying they are all the same. I am asking what practically happens if somebody wants an abortion at 35 weeks, if the law were changed, as has been suggested, so that an abortion should be allowed at any time for any reason.

I don't think it's infantalising the situation. I think it's a question that has to be answered if people genuinely want to change the law.

I am pro choice because its not my effing business!

I don't see all these pro life folk queuing up to help unwanted children in some way when they've been born.

They are just pro forced birth. If they genuinely care about potential children and care about their life then they should do their bit to ensure that life is a happy one. But once the child is born they don't seem to give a damn anymore.
No, you just see judgements of:

"well she shouldn't have had a kid so young."

"She should have got herself a good career first."

"Why should they get a house just because they have kids."

"She should have kept her legs together." (In a case of failed contraception.)

"Kids cost money, what did she expect?"

"She should have found a stable relationship first."

"Well she will just have cope won't she, who cares if she has "mental health" issues ."

"She knew he was abusive so shouldn't have got pregnant."

"She is too irresponsible to bring up a child."

"Why should they get any benefits just because they have a kid."

"Why should my taxes pay for their kids."

"She hasn't got any family support so why on earth did she have a kid?"

"She just wants a council flat."
"Pro life" and yet still judgemental twats towards mums for a variety of reasons.
You see it all over social media. People on low incomes getting ridiculed for having kids, young mums being called irresponsible and clueless when it comes to babies, people on benefits being ripped apart.

Honestly, it's no wonder women have abortions when these really shitty attitudes from society are thrown about. Imagine being a mum of 3 on a low income, living in a council house, pregnant with her 4th child and has depression. She'll feel like scum because of the judgemental idiots who will call her for having another child but will also call her for having an abortion!

since when was pro-choice another way of saying you completely agree with everybody’s reasoning?

I believe everybody has the right to choose for themselves, but it doesn’t mean I have to like what they do. But at the same time why does anybody else’s opinion matter?
I’m pro-choice but when my friend talks about how babies are leaches and parasites and dont deserve to use her body, she continues to get pregnant and have an abortion after abortion and says it’s her right to do so - we’ll, she’s correct in saying it is her right, but I can’t hide my shock at her disconnection from her body. But I will of course continue to be her friend and support her, regardless of whether or not I agree - as it’s her body. Not mine.

I'm pro choice.

Whilst I have views on my own reasons/ acceptability of abortion I'm pro choice FOR OTHERS. Their reasons, gestation decision making are their business.

I'm pro-choice... pre my children and still am.

And I could have a termination should I require one and not feel guilty. I've never had one though.

The reasons why people terminate is their business, I can express shock at anyone's choice I do not know their life circumstances.

I will admit I don't get the logic behind "it's ok if the woman is poor, a rape victim, DV victim etc but not if it was just an accident".
I mean,
It's either ok or it isn't, surely?
Can someone explain the difference between a say, 12 week foetus, conceived by...
a 44 year old career woman who hates children and didn't realise she was still fertile.
A 22 year old uni student who made a drunken mistake.
A 16 year old who made a mistake...?
A 35 year old woman in an abusive relationship, who has her contraception removed/damaged or flushed against her will and already has 7 children?
How is one foetus any different to the next?

Abortion isn't anything I'm ever going to face, so In the same way I support gay marriage (doesn't effect me, why would I try to stop it?) I'll support abortion. But I just do not get this logic, I am honestly doing my best. But I struggle. I don't think there's a grey area, I don't know how you can argue aborting one is morally wrong but one is not. I do understand the differences between how far along you would be and I believe TFMR to be a different kettle of fish again but I don't understand why circumstances really matter....

@merrymouse are we talking about the proposed Irish legislation? If so, it’s based on the Oireachtas commission report recommendations. It can’t go to be a bill before the referendum is passed. I don’t think I read your first post in context, so my apologolies.

I honestly (if the referendum is passed) cannot see legislation being passed without huge opposition.

*or even apologies.

My phone is possessed.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/heywood-dead-baby-investigation-latest-14591654

These are the situations I wonder could have been avoided if abortion was available as late as necessary

No, if you believe it’s ‘murder’ as that poster did (and I’m not saying that’s right) then you can’t also expect them to believe in the Mother’s right to terminate!

But the women can still abort, regardless; even if someone else thinks it's 'murder'. Because it is her right! It doesn't matter what opinions are flung her way, it won't change the outcome, will it?

@mishfish

These are the situations I wonder could have been avoided if abortion was available as late as necessary

I just don't buy that. Whoever the mother was, she didn't have access to abortion at all, early or late. That baby was absolutely hated. Who kills a baby, rather than leaving it somewhere to be found?