That many people believe they are pro choice but are not

[winterstail]

My understanding of pro choice is that you support a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy.

Many people claim to be pro choice but then express shock at the reason a woman chooses to terminate.

This isn't pro choice then, is it?

This is complete and utter rubbish. You've clearly No idea what you're talking about. How many pro-lifers have you discussed this with and where are your facts to back up your statements?

How do pro-lifers assist women who are forced to be an incubator?

Well I'm pro life and anti death penalty bit it isn't too far a stretch to see how they are distinguishing between the innocent and the guilty.

Of course I'm not the arbiter! It was just my view. And I did say that there are lots of grey areas e.g medical reasons. I'm not anti-abortion up to 12 weeks, maybe longer in exceptional circumstances. Shit happens. But it is a loss of potential life, that bit isn't an opinion.

How do pro-lifers assist women who are forced to be an incubator?

Many people support pregnant women physically and emotionally.

Many people support pregnant women physically and emotionally

That’s not really an answer. What about those who don’t want to be pregnant? Can’t afford to be pregnant?

Being pro-choice to me means that I believe the government should not be able to legislate women's bodies.

It does not mean freedom from judgement or that I disagree with some decisions personally. I don't say this out loud to anyone else, but I have to admit in some situations I judge.

It is similar to freedom of speech. You are allowed to say what you want without government repercussions, but you aren't free from other people judging you or disagreeing with you.

I vehemently oppose the government regulating women's choice in any way.

Being pro choice for me personally means not having to even think about a woman's reason for terminating. It's none of my business why she might make that choice and I believe very strongly that she shouldn't have to justify or persuade others as to her choices; they are made and that's the end of it.

I disagree very strongly that anyone male should feel compelled to judge or attempt to govern a woman's right to terminate. Both in the government and in medicine.

That’s not really an answer. What about those who don’t want to be pregnant? Can’t afford to be pregnant?

I apologise for not answering your question completely. Mine was a least a better attempt than those who ignored mine entirely.

Plenty of people will also financially support pregnant women and them and their child after delivery. I've seen it several times within my own community and we are fortunate enough to live in a country that provides free healthcare, welfare etc.

The not wanting to be pregnant part is covered with emotional support.

It's an odd discussion because in the UK very few women who don't want to be oregnant have to stay pregnant due to our abortion laws so there's no need for this support. In countries where abortion is illegal then good people would do what they can to make the situation better for the woman involved.

This is complete and utter rubbish. You've clearly No idea what you're talking about. How many pro-lifers have you discussed this with and where are your facts to back up your statements?

Have any pro lifers on here discussed their plans for when the child is born? How they can be supported, and the mother supported? Logistically, how finances can be helped, how housing can be found, how accessing the support needed to raise a child if you’re not in the position to can be accessed?

I have not had an abortion myself but when I was pregnant I had to consider it because they thought my unborn child had a serious life threatening issue. Whilst we went through testing we discussed "what if.." and I came to the conclusion that I just couldn't do it. Luckily it turned out OK.

I do not know where I stand on abortion. I think women should have the option to do it for medical reasons at any stage and up to a certain time limit for non medical reasons. I wouldn't do it myself. I'm not sure where that puts me on the pro-life/ not pro-life scale.

@Smeddum

Have any pro lifers on here discussed their plans for when the child is born? How they can be supported, and the mother supported? Logistically, how finances can be helped, how housing can be found, how accessing the support needed to raise a child if you’re not in the position to can be accessed?

I've made my position clear upthread, that I'm Pro Choice, and will be voting Yes in the referendum. I've also pointed out that one result of the anti-abortion laws in Ireland is that single parents receive much better benefits than they do in the UK. If you're not allowed terminate a pregnancy you can't then be penalised for being forced to go through with it. Things might get a bit tougher if the 8th is repealed.

Babyplaymat
I think you've miss understood me. I agree with abortion for what ever reason up untill viability (execpt for medical reasons) but I also think the age of viability needs reviewing due to survival rates of micro prem babies increasing.
Contraceptive failure is one thing but repeated abortions as a form of contraception is imo irresponsible. I know it isn't cut and dry but in a country where there are so many options available that prevent pregnancy in the first place using abortion as your only contraception is a strange choice. I'll defend her right to access a safe and legal abortion but I would be wondering why she hadn't looked into other forms of contrecption e.g. abuse etc
I'll also add that my child is also the result of a contraceptive failure and like you I chose to keep my child but it did make me reassess my contrecption and double down so I hopefully won't have another unplanned baby.

I've made my position clear upthread, that I'm Pro Choice, and will be voting Yes in the referendum. I've also pointed out that one result of the anti-abortion laws in Ireland is that single parents receive much better benefits than they do in the UK. If you're not allowed terminate a pregnancy you can't then be penalised for being forced to go through with it. Things might get a bit tougher if the 8th is repealed

I think that again smacks of moral judgement on the part of the government. There are more concerns than solely financial ones, and that is the lack of support I’m talking about.

To deny access to safe, legal and non judgemental terminations is barbaric and intolerant. Whether I agree with the reasons for termination or not is irrelevant, I am not the one making that choice. But I will fight as hard as I can for women to have that choice.

One of the drums the Prolife people are pounding mercilessly is the DS angle. Every second poster has a photo of a winsome DS child. I can see how the parents of DS children who've continued with a pregnancy, and love their child, feel it's very unfair that others choose to abort if they know there's a possibility of DS or other disability. But not everyone wants their life changed to that extent.

Claryfrey you are so right about some being "pro birth" as opposed to "pro life."

I don't see all these pro life folk queuing up to help unwanted children in some way when they've been born. Children who might face a depressing shit life because their mothers contraception failed or she was very young/naive or in a controlling abusive relationship with no escape or one of the many other reasons a woman may find herself pregnant in.

I don't see them queuing up to help at food banks or volunteering to help children who are living in poverty because the system has failed those children in some way.

No, you just see judgements of:

"well she shouldn't have had a kid so young."

"She should have got herself a good career first."

"Why should they get a house just because they have kids."

"She should have kept her legs together." (In a case of failed contraception.)

"Kids cost money, what did she expect?"

"She should have found a stable relationship first."

"Well she will just have cope won't she, who cares if she has "mental health" issues ."

"She knew he was abusive so shouldn't have got pregnant."

"She is too irresponsible to bring up a child."

"Why should they get any benefits just because they have a kid."

"Why should my taxes pay for their kids."

"She hasn't got any family support so why on earth did she have a kid?"

"She just wants a council flat."

These are just some examples. Woman can find themselves pregnant under different circumstances and it's certainly more cruel to that life growing inside her to be born into a life of adoption/care system/parents with addictions/poverty/mental health problems etc.

A tiny fraction of people use abortion as a form of contraception and later ones are not decisions entered into lightly. So this "pro life" drivel people talk about is actually "pro birth" because most people don't give two hoots about the life of that child once it's born.

I agree smeddum. We'll punish you for having sex by taking your bodily autonomy away and force you to continue an unwanted pregnancy but it's ok because we'll make sure you don't have to live in abject poverty afterwards.

@goodbyeeee yes! If that’s not judgement I don’t know what is.

@Thefirsttulip thank you for your excellent post - women really can’t win either way with some people.

Every sperm is a potential life, every egg - should we be freezing them all? Frozen embryo’s, what about those? It’s an impossible line to draw.

Being pro-life is anyone’s right. For their own body / eggs / foetus only. Leave other women to their own bodies and decisions.

I do not know where I stand on abortion. I think women should have the option to do it for medical reasons at any stage and up to a certain time limit for non medical reasons. I wouldn't do it myself. I'm not sure where that puts me on the pro-life/ not pro-life scale

Surely that makes you pro choice. The fact you wouldn't have an abortion is irrelevant. They're not compulsory!

I think the 'viable'age can be misleading though and is hijacked by pro lifers . It would be very rare for a baby born at 24 weeks to not need intensive medical support - replicating a womb - to survive and not have long term medical conditions. It's not a case of a twenty four weeker pops out and is a totally typical healthy newborn .

Thanks sausagedogs. I cannot stand the narrow mindedness and quite often hypocrisy that surrounds self proclaimed "pro life."

Every case is unique and quite often has complex circumstances surrounding it which is why it would be more helpful if people actually looked at the bigger long term picture rather than just make sweeping generalisations about circumstances they know nothing about.

Pro Choice is not about agreeing with women being able to have an abortion because of medical reasons/having been raped

It’s about the women making that choice regardless of her reasoning and at the time she feels she doesn’t want to continue with the pregnancy

Why and when doesn’t come into it

Surely it would be possible for someone asking for a late abortion, post 24 weeks, to give up the parental rights which she doesn’t want anyway, and allow the baby to be adopted. Despite what has been said there are very few babies available for adoption. It wouldn’t deny the woman her right to choose, she would have made the same choice, not to have a baby. The only difference would be that the baby taken from her body would be alive and would not have been killed in utero.