That many people believe they are pro choice but are not

[winterstail]

My understanding of pro choice is that you support a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy.

Many people claim to be pro choice but then express shock at the reason a woman chooses to terminate.

This isn't pro choice then, is it?

But it's not outside the womb. That's the point.

But it's not outside the womb. That's the point

But if it was, it would be able to live independently is my point.

Hence why I believe UK abortion law is correct to be at 24 weeks.

I remember once reading an analogy about pro-lifers that I thought was absolutely spot on-

Pro-lifers are like comic book fans

To a comic book fan, a comic is extremely valuable when it is in the wrapper. As soon as it is out of the wrapper, it becomes virtually worthless and loses all value and interest.

It’s the same with pro-lifers. They only care about “babies” whilst they’re in utero. As soon as they’re born (ie taken out of the wrapper), they become somebody else’s problem, and no longer worth fighting for.

I realise that's your point but as I said up thread, the logical follow through of that position is that you force a woman to give birth to a child. The state literally takes control of her body and treats her as an incubator. That's not a position I can get on board with.

I realise that's your point but as I said up thread, the logical follow through of that position is that you force a woman to give birth to a child. The state literally takes control of her body and treats her as an incubator. That's not a position I can get on board with

In theory I agree with you.

However, once a baby has the ability to live independently from the mother, they become a separate being surely? I doubt you'd find many willing doctors and nurses who'd participate in the termination of a healthy baby at 40 weeks gestation.

So true banana. We suffered complete male factor infertility.

I spent one minute looking at adoption and realised I couldn’t do it. We have had three children using donor sperm who we adore.

We could have offered unwanted children a wonderful home but my husband was late thirties, and I just couldn’t face the absolute shite we would have to go through.

It’s the same with pro-lifers. They only care about “babies” whilst they’re in utero. As soon as they’re born (ie taken out of the wrapper), they become somebody else’s problem, and no longer worth fighting for

I agree with this, wholeheartedly. Unless every pro lifer is also an adopter/foster career.

Carer not career

However, once a baby has the ability to live independently from the mother, they become a separate being surely? I doubt you'd find many willing doctors and nurses who'd participate in the termination of a healthy baby at 40 weeks gestation.

But up to the point it's born it's not a separate being.

I'm not saying it's an easy position to come to and I've thought long and hard about it. But I just can't get past the red line of forced birth so legal and safe termination without restriction is the only place I can end up.

I think it's largely theoretical in any event. If abortion became available without restriction I very much doubt there would be a surge in 3rd trimester terminations.

Yes I agree it's theoretical. Even if abortion was legal up to any gestation, I'd imagine there would be virtually no abortions carried out at such late gestations for non medical reasons. I also don't agree with forced births...but I also wouldn't agree with a full term baby being aborted for non medical reasons... medical ethics is complex and there's a lot of grey areas, where there is no right answer but rather a least worst option.

And still, people are sticking to 24 weeks as a cut off when a 24 week foetus can rarely live independently of the mother without medical intervention. When some women don’t get anomaly scans until 24 weeks or later, and some don’t discover a pregnancy until after then. Choices aren’t black and white, we need individual women to be legally allowed to make a valid choice about their own body.

But to terminate at 40 weeks still requires the extraction of the baby, albeit dead. You already have to go through some kind of birthing

Yes I agree to an extent. It's not a position I revel in. But I am steadfast on it. The corollary of no forced birth is legal and safe abortion for any reason and with no restriction.

Surely the "aborting " of a healthy baby at 40 weeks would involved the mother giving birth? Or a Caesarian? ( I had a late miscarriage,sadly the baby died but I didn't then lose her naturally and had to be admitted -it was nowhere near 40 weeks but basically the medical procedure to deal with it was to induce labour.)
So after a certain point the safest procedure for the mother would surely be to actually have the baby.
I have two conflicting beliefs here.I think to force a woman to carry to term a baby she doesn't want is abhorrent.
I also think that at the point that the baby is capable of living outside the womb any procedure that results in it dying rather than living is wrong.
Dunno where to go with that really.

I do think that it is overly simplistic to say that a viable baby still in the womb is the same in kind as a week old foetus.There is a difference for me at the point where the baby is viable apart from the mother - I think it is a separate being,albeit one still totally physically dependant on the mother because of its situation.

Here's my view:
No woman should be denied the right to abort up to circa 12 weeks or longer for medical reasons.
The cut off should be 20 weeks (again for non medical reasons) - I as the parent of a preemie I've seen babies at 24 weeks and they survived. I cannot imagine going through a late abortion - it would be horrific. My sympathies to anyone who has lost a baby this late not out of choice .
I have seen posters claim that they don't have a voice because they have had early abortions and not felt a thing, sadness or otherwise. I don't feel that this needs a voice. A termination at any stage is a loss of potential life. I make exceptions to victims of rape that goes without saying.
There are a lot of grey areas, and I don't mind having splinters in my bum over this.

A termination at any stage is a loss of potential life. I make exceptions to victims of rape that goes without saying

This makes no sense...what do you mean?

I make exceptions to victims of rape that goes without saying

But that means the woman who has been raped has to disclose again, even if she doesn’t want to. It’s further trauma ime.

I am most certainly pro choice up to the point of viability. There are 22 weekers who are surviving now so I think 24 weeks is far too late for the cut off, it should be 20 weeks max.
I do however disagree with people repeatedly using abortion as a form of birth control, once is fine - it was a mistake/accident but four, five times. Get your birth control sorted, there are far better options than abortion to not have children (obviously I'm not talking about for medical reasons)

Have you read any of the past however many pages? And if so, how is this still your opinion? Many scans aren't until past 20 wks now. Many 24weekers will not survive, and if they do may have long term effects. And given the stats that demonstrate just how many abortions are early, what would be the issue if people did have multiple ones?

My much adored 3rs child was a contraceptive failure, I had the coil fitted. Didn't realise for a few months. Now we are financially and emotionally stable enough for this to have been a shock but a very pleasant one.

A termination at any stage is a loss of potential life

Any time sperm is expelled from the male body millions of "potential lives" are disposed of. Each month a woman ovulates is a potential life. How many of those eggs become babies?

Your reasoning is beyond ridiculous.

But then you’re not pro choice zzzzz
What you’re saying is it’s ok to make one mistake but not 2 or 3. You’re judging.
I personally couldn’t care less how many early abortions a woman has, that’s between her & her conscience, but I don’t think abortion past about 12 weeks is right unless in extreme circumstances.
So I’m pro choice with conditions - just like most people.

A termination at any stage is a loss of potential life. I make exceptions to victims of rape that goes without saying

And actually this makes me very uncomfortable, because the life becomes irrelevant if it came about because of rape. So if it didn’t, there’s an element of punishment for the woman who has conceived consensually, a “well it’s your own fault for having sex” attitude. Which makes me extremely angry, because women have been punished morally for sexual choices for generations. Any continuation of it is insidious.

Takemedown, you are not the arbiter of which women “deserve” a voice - you can’t toss aside their experiences just because you don’t agree with them.

In my case for example, termination was the ending of a potential life that would have been inhumanely hard on the resulting child and on me. I have never regretted my decision and wouldn’t presume to judge a woman who made a different decision in the same situation. Her body, her choice.

It’s the same with pro-lifers. They only care about “babies” whilst they’re in utero. As soon as they’re born (ie taken out of the wrapper), they become somebody else’s problem, and no longer worth fighting for.

This is complete and utter rubbish. You've clearly No idea what you're talking about. How many pro-lifers have you discussed this with and where are your facts to back up your statements?

Many people who are pro life are also in favour of the death penalty. It's very odd thinking.