That many people believe they are pro choice but are not

[winterstail]

My understanding of pro choice is that you support a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy.

Many people claim to be pro choice but then express shock at the reason a woman chooses to terminate.

This isn't pro choice then, is it?

@NotTaken I’m guessing the confusion has arisen because you’re taking “mentally” to mean “emotionally”. I didn’t mean emotionally - you’re right to assert that would have been incorrect

That’s a copy and pasted definition of red herring. Of course I can’t quantify if it was deliberate or unintentional.

I worry that the idea that the longer the procedure is left, the more mental (emotional) damage is done is unhelpful. I am concerned it implies that it becomes ‘more wrong’ the longer it is left.

I understand that you meant physically and logistically more difficult, and I accept that.

Who can't get themselves organised in three months?

I found out I was pregnant with DS2 at 16 weeks. DD was 5 months old and I put my symptoms down to tiredness. Now I would never have chosen a termination because for me personally it’s not something I would choose, but I would never advocate the removal of choice for another woman.

Emotive language and judgement is never helpful.

Cross post, yes that exactly where the confusion has come from.

Totally agree OP. Once you add a but you are already putting limits on the choices women have over their bodies

I know for myself I support all women to have an abortion at any time no reason I feel needs to be given as its not going to change the reason why I support her

It’s distressing to think of late terminations but that women don’t have full control over their own bodies is more damaging to women

I think people who have abortion after 16 weeks are unspeakably cruel. These are my feelings and I can't change them however much they may upset people on here. I never tell anyone these feelings. But I cry for these babies

Those are fetuses, not babies. And it's better for women to be forced to carry them and birth them against their will, and then be expected to be good mothers?

Hell no.

I'm pro choice. Fully pro choice.

I'm a mother, and a midwife. I've worked with tiny, very prem babies in SCBU, I've looked after women giving birth to much wanted babies who have died in-utero. I've looked after women who have had feticide (Late term abortion, almost exclusively done for medical reasons). None of this has changed my opinion. A woman's bosy is her own adn she must have full autonomy over it.

An earlier poster said that "at some point a fetus becomes a baby". That point is birth. Not before, medically and legally speaking. I would be deeply uneasy if that were to change.

I’m always curious too as to why pro life people talk about protecting “babies” in utero, but nothing is said about after they’re born, if there is no termination.

What then? Who will raise them, feed them, clothe, educate and care for them? Are we to force women to bring up babies they can’t/don’t want to raise? Is that any kind of life for a child?

Of course late stage abortions are statistically mostly for medical reasons because... that's the law! If we were truly "pro choice" then you'd be able to terminate right up to labour for any reason whatsoever. For example if you came into financial problems at week 34 then a pro choicer would support your right to terminate under those circumstances. In a truly pro choice country the statistics would be very different but we're not in one

It’s a bit like being pro-freedom of speech surely? You can be an absolute believer in the right to say whatever you like but highly critical of what some people do with that freedom

This. I remember seeing a WW2 veteran seeing an EDL rally and telling them “I fought hard for your right to have freedom of speech, I disagree wholeheartedly with how you are using it, but I’d fight all over again for your right to do it.”

Sums up how I feel. As distressing as some cases of termination are, and I would disagree with the reasons, I would continue to defend a woman’s right to access a safe, legal and non judgemental termination.

I am most certainly pro choice up to the point of viability. There are 22 weekers who are surviving now so I think 24 weeks is far too late for the cut off, it should be 20 weeks max.
I do however disagree with people repeatedly using abortion as a form of birth control, once is fine - it was a mistake/accident but four, five times. Get your birth control sorted, there are far better options than abortion to not have children (obviously I'm not talking about for medical reasons)

Yet again I’m surprised by the breathtaking lack of awareness of how others live on here.
Just to give a few examples: some women have chaotic lives due to broken families, some have no access to contraception due to controlling partners, some don’t even know their baby has abnormalities incompatible with life until past 24w, or that they’re pregnant until the third trimester. Sitting in your naice glass houses judging them is abhorrent.

If you’re pro choice you can’t say it’s ok to have one abortion but not 4.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/679028/Abortions_stats_England_Wales_2016.pdf

To that person who was quoting these Stats & also said it was being used as a lazy form of contraception.

This actually states that most cases of abortion are done in under 10 weeks (81%) and also that there has been a decline in the amount of late abortions.. AND that abortions are mostly done due to the continuation of the pregnancy being a greater risk to the womans physical and/or mental health.

If you're going to quote statistics at least use them correctly.

Women deserve a choice!

I cannot believe so many are saying ‘as late as necessary’ if anyone suddenly decides, at say 36 weeks, that they don’t want a baby after all are you honestly saying that it is ok for them to ask for that baby (and it is a baby) to be killed even if it is perfectly healthy?
I don’t believe that even the most ardent pro choicers think that is acceptable! There has to be a cut off point in the name of humanity.

I’m completely pro choice. Up to the cut off if a woman doesn’t want a baby for WHATEVER reason I don’t think she should have to have that baby.
Circumstances can change, and it must be heartbreaking to have to make that decision. But yes, I think if you choose to do that, then fine. Not my body, not my business.

Indeed smeddum, their care for these babies seems to end as soon as they are born I assume they think God will look after them.

I am pro choice, there are no restrictions on my views.
I dont believe late terminations are just because the mother has only just decided, and late terminations are incredibly rare.
Im all in favour of a controlled late termination rather than a spontaneous birth of a baby that wouldnt survive.
I am all in favour in whatever the mother wants to do regarding continuing the pregnancy.
I dont believe that lots of women use it as a form of contraception since you have to get two doctors to sign off on it and its on medical records, and sometimes you have to pay for it.
I am pro choice.
I think other people can hold whatever opinion they want however they shouldnt press their own opinions and feelings on to other people.
No one skips to the clinic, it is a choice that stays with you forever.
Maybe those that dont believe in terminations could champion the rights of the already living breathing unwanted children, there are 100's in the care system that could do with someone fighting their corner.

I cannot believe so many are saying ‘as late as necessary’ if anyone suddenly decides, at say 36 weeks, that they don’t want a baby after all are you honestly saying that it is ok for them to ask for that baby (and it is a baby) to be killed

But the alternative is a baby being born who is not wanted. Who is going to ensure that that baby is well provided for (emotionally and financially), cared for, etc. Would you force the woman to give birth and put it up for adoption? Despite what is said above, there are many many children in care and far fewer people who want to adopt.

I cannot believe so many are saying ‘as late as necessary’ if anyone suddenly decides, at say 36 weeks, that they don’t want a baby after all are you honestly saying that it is ok for them to ask for that baby (and it is a baby) to be killed even if it is perfectly healthy?
I don’t believe that even the most ardent pro choicers think that is acceptable! There has to be a cut off point in the name of humanity.

Sorry to sound like a stuck record but, for me, it really doesn't matter what I or you or anyone else thinks is "acceptable " if the result is to remove a woman's bodily autonomy and force her to give birth to a child if she does not want.

I'm totally pro choice for any reason.

I am uncomfortable with the late as necessary comments though. Once a fetus/baby can live independently outside of the womb without even needing medical intervention, then surely that becomes a different situation. It would surely be highly unethical for a woman at 39 weeks pregnant to decide she has changed her mind and request an abortion. I totally accept that that situation probably wouldnt happen, but in theory, that would surely be verging on infanticide? As the baby could live independently outside of the womb without any medical intervention.

Oh and a quick look online tells me that adoption rates are dropping,while the number of children in care are rising. Where are these thousands of parents?

Because in part the adoption process is hideously gruelling and many many couples don't make it through. Many don't get approved. Many don't feel able to take on an older child with severe attachment disorder and a range of developmental and behavioural issues

Reasons why people on the infertility forums I am on have been rejected as adopters

Self employed
Both parents work

Not enough bedrooms
Own a dog
Not enough family close by
Have debt
Rent their home
Difficult childhood
Previous marital issues
Physical health conditions
Mental health issues
Not enough outside space

A friend is going through the adoption process. Most of the couples in her cohort have dropped out as the process was so emotionally gruelling - they were on their knees. And the social workers made it clear that if they were struggling with having their personal lives ripped to shreds at this stage, they weren't equipped to take on a child who'd experienced significant trauma

It's really not as simple as 'infertile couples want a baby that's genetically theirs'. The amount of couples who go through donor egg or sperm, or embryo adoption, is testament to this

The adoption process is brutal, and many couples who've suffered the emotional nightmare that is infertility don't feel able to put themselves through it.

I’m definitely in the pro choice camp. I’ve supported a friend through an abortion even though we both knew it was something I could never do personally, that doesn’t mean at all that it isn’t the right decision for other people. My friend was a very unmaternal mother of a child who had just started school, she had struggled though the early years and had no desire to do it again after she was just starting to get a bit of her old self/life back. It was the right thing for her to do and she has no regrets. I’m glad I was able to support her through her decision and more glad she knew she could ask for my support when so many would have judged her.