AIBU to think mother of son’s classmate shouldn’t have grabbed him?

[MissOlivier]

My son has shown some spiteful behaviour towards his class. He has ADHD and ASD. His behaviour is definitely getting harder to manage in a mainstream setting.

Or a child who isn’t in control of his own actions?

I have sympathy with the teachers. With everyone in this situation in fact. It’s a stark reminder that the system is broken, that it isn’t working for anyone.

What I took and take exception to is the people upthread placing all the responsibility onto the boy while blatantly ignoring every other factor.

@Sweetiebaby last night I wrote a long reply and was just about to post it when there was a huge clap of thunder, our kitten came hurtling off the windowsill in fear, ran straight on to my tablet and managed to delete it so here is a very watered down version.

We have 2 kids, the youngest started displaying behavioral problems at about 11months old, we raised concerns and they were dismissed, I had seen and dealt with Autism before but what I was seeing in my own child was definitely not classic (Kanner's) Autism, I raised concerns many times over the years until eventually someone agreed with me that there was something different about our child and we did eventually get a diagnosis of an ASC amongst other things. During the years before diagnosis there was no help, no support, no understanding, there was no attempt by anyone else to see beyond the end of their noses, according to his school our case was not worthy enough to warrant an EP assessment...

How could we explain to our older child, their cousins, their aunts and uncles, grandparents, their friends and classmate's, their teachers, Joe blogs down the street why our younger child would become violent over the slightest thing? We were blamed and shamed by people who thought that we let our child run riot, that we spoilt our child, that we never said no to our child, and gave in to our child's every demand, the reality is far different, we were more strict with our younger child, we had to be in order to keep our child safe but we really were blundering about in the dark.

Once we had the diagnosis not much changed, our child still barely slept and once asleep suffered night terrors and sleepwalking, was still sensory defensive, became more isolated at school because of the violence so strategies were put in place but were then removed after a few days because "they were not working" our child became more confused over what was expected of him because the strategies weren't given enough time to work, and more violent at home and elsewhere because the anxiety about school had increased tenfold.

School eventually applied for and got a statement of SEN. And that's when our problems really began. The statement was about as much use as a chocolate teapot because the school refused to adhere to crucial aspects of it and they still refused to get EP involvement. We agreed to the school telling some other parents of our child's diagnosis as long as they agreed to respect our child's right to confidentiality they all agreed but by the end of the week every kid in the school and their parents knew of our child's various diagnosis and some parents used that knowledge to try and get our child permanently excluded, but all the time that the school said that they coping and managing the behaviour then we couldn't move schools but our child was being victimized, discriminated against and illegally excluded...

Our child became suicidal.

After an incident involving a member of staff i begged the school to admit defeat and tell the LA that they could no longer cope with our child, which they did, the LA agreed that it was no longer in our child's best interests to remain in mainstream education.

It still took us nearly a year to get our child into another school, its not been easy on all of us but my family and our lives are back on track. My older child and members of our extended family etc haven't been attacked for years.

So no, I don't think that anyone should know details of a child's personal, private and confidential medical diagnosis unless they need to know and can keep the confidentiality. Sharing our child's information cost us very dearly.

@enterthedragon I am very sorry that happened to you and your family.

@Smeddum, thank you.

What the general population don't realise is that children very often have to massively fail in education before they get any support or an ehcp, and since an ehcp is a requirement for specialist education it can take a long time get and there are not enough specialist placements anyway, at the time we were going through it there were only 7 key stage 1 and 7 key stage 2 placements in our city for children with Autism, there were no Secondary placements at all for children with Autism, now there are 6. We were told that we had no chance of a key stage 2 placement basically because there was nowhere for the ks2 kids to move into so they were being kept where they were, that meant that ks1 kids who were due to move up to ks2 couldn't, that in turn meant that they couldn't take anymore kids in ks1. The whole system round here was a mess.

@enterthedragon that sounds awful! I’m in Scotland so don’t really understand the English school system/terminology, sorry. What is KS1/2?
Our local area used to have 30 primary 1 (I think reception equivalent?) places when DS1 started 7 years ago, now its 10 and I can literally see the damage that is being done.
DS1 has been lucky to get a place at a SEN high school for August, because I know that certainly emotionally and definitely socially he would find it extremely distressing.

It’s heartbreaking when all you hear is that your child isn’t wanted. Because it just compounds it doesn’t it?

@enterthedragon

That is heartbreaking and I am truly sorry that happened to your child and to you.

I didn't mean to suggest that confidential information be shared as a matter of course. I was trying to illustrate, in my daughter's experience, how all she experienced was a little boy attacking her multiple times a day. Whether that was because he was badly behaved or as a result of SEN we didn't and still don't know. Possibly you're right and we shouldn't know. But what happened was that the boy got more and more isolated from his peers because they were scared of him hurting them and my daughter became terrified to go to school.

I can't see a way of managing challenging behaviour in MTS without unlimited resources being ploughed in so that there are always staff available and suitable accommodation for whoever needs it.

I've been a governor at school and sadly had to exclude a student who's outbursts resulted in his classmates having to be evacuated numerous times for their own safety. We spoke at length to the child, his parents and professionals to ensure that we provided every assistance possible but it still wasn't enough. There was no way of managing his behaviour in a classroom environment shared by 29 other students.

Like with everything else, it seems that funding is kept at a minimum with the expectation that it will be good enough and I guess for the majority of the time it is ok but when you have a child with complex needs it's unrealistic to expect that they can cope in the same way.

Maybe I'm naive. I like to believe that for the most part people are decent and if you engage they will work with you. At some point though even the most tolerant person will struggle to accept seeing their child hurt on a regular basis.

In this area we've had pupil referral unit places cut to the bare minimum. Pupils that are excluded can possibly get a place for a term before they are expected to get back to mainstream. These students don't always have SEN but have sometimes just gone off the rails and are unmanageable in school. They usually thrive in the PRU because of small classes, excellent staff etc but due to the cost they are quickly moved on to struggle again. It's simply lack of money and it is heartbreaking. All of these students are being set up to fail.

I like to believe that for the most part people are decent and if you engage they will work with you

I wish it was like this. It should be. I used to hope it would be. But years of shit has knocked that out of me.

Key stage 1= reception - year 2
Key stage 2= year 3 - year 6

@enterthedragon thank you, that makes sense. And also makes what you wrote above even worse! How can they leave children just “stuck” like that?

No, an older sibling could be forgiven for that but not an adult. Especially as she does know about the autism. Adults are, you know, supposed to be able to control their tempers.

Clearly you have difficulty managing your own anger. I would have liked to do all sorts of things to my DSis's violent ex when we went to their marital home to collect her stuff. Instead I just blanked him and we did what we had to do. It's called self-control.

This situation must be very distressing for both you and your son. But the school is clearly NOT handling this well.

But look at it from the girls mothers point of view. Her daughter is continually being pushed and bullied, and no-one at school is stopping it. I don't know how big your son is, but if he is also a big chap, the daughter is probably terrified of him. Grabbing your son was obviously wrong, but I can also see how her frustration must have boiled over.

She does know he's autistic, though. Invading his space would have been very hard for the OP's DS to cope with. If she'd been protecting her DD from being attacked on the way home from school it would have been understandable. But in fact he was just minding his own business on his way home from school.

She does know he's autistic, though. Invading his space would have been very hard for the OP's DS to cope with. If she'd been protecting her DD from being attacked on the way home from school it would have been understandable. But in fact he was just minding his own business on his way home from school.M spot on Lizzie

@Sweetiebaby
I appreciate what you're getting at but imo if a child is displaying behaviour like you describe was happening to your dd then that should be classed as (at the very least) additional needs and the same process should be followed as for all SEND because not all children with SEND will have been diagnosed before they start school, as I said before generic explanations are perfectly adequate for young children, so little Timmy who won't share the toys = it takes some children longer to learn how to share, Jane who hits you if you stand/sit too near = some children get scared when people get too close to them. Its not that hard to be a little imaginative.

Just for the record, most of the kids in my childs school did actually like my child, those that didn't found ways to wind my child up because the resulting meltdowns were spectacular, when my child became overwhelmed he would lash out at the person closest, it wasn't often personal, it wasn't sustained and most of the time he was mortified and so sorry.

@Smeddum, those kids wouldn't have lasted five minutes in either the generic special school or the local PRU, they had to stay where they were while alternative provision was found.

Do parents have a right to know if our children are taught in a class with children with serious anger issues?
My daughter who is 7 has been in school with an angry boy since she began school. Ive been told he has anger management issues and is being managed. (Clear throat). He shouts /screams at her and other members of class when all are quiet working . Saying shes being naughty (she isnt) chewing (she isnt) she is wrong, uses rude words etc. This has got worse over the years. Last week he grabbed her arma behind her back and pushed her against the wall. This was because he wanted to be in front of her in line. The school have done little. They have moved him around the classroom. Sharing the anger around a little i guess. They have given him the 1st place in line so as far as im concerned they have validated his physical treatment of my daughter and justified his anger by saying he is angry with every1 not just her. He is 8. Shes 7 and the youngest in the year. The older he gets the worse the problem seems to be getting. He bangs his fists against the desk and starts shouting for no reason. He hurts his own fingers by breaking pencils. He has no 1 to 1. The teacher or teaching assistant is not near him. I feel i should have been made aware earlier that this child with his issues is/was in my childs class. His outbursts make her jumpy and cannot be having a positive influence on her emotional development. Can anyone advise on this ? Do parent have a right to know their child is being subject to outbursts daily?

I add her arms were bruised. Which may be inconsequential but not to me.

Hi @mummywales
You might want to ask MNHQ to move your comments to a new thread or you could copy and paste and start your own.
This is close to a year old and people probably won’t see it.
I suggest posting in primary education or chat initially!

If I did that to every child that bullied mine, half the class would have been lined up!
Frustration at the school or not, you do not lay your hands on a child.
The mother should be getting firm with the school and you should be reporting this. She is clearly not happy with the school's response so that is where her ire should be aimed. All children are entitled to be taught in a safe environment, including yours. They are not responding to triggers to de escalate by the sound of it and thus handling the resulting behaviour poorly. Can you get the local autism team involved?

Precisely. This woman's anger should be aimed at the school who are failing in their legal duty to provide suitable adaptations/support to this boy and they are failing to protect the safety of the girl when their failures cause this boy to lash out.

So many posters seem to think it's perfectly achievable for a child with SEN to control his actions, despite him having a disability which prevents this and him being aggravated over and over by noise and distraction. But it's somehow not achievable for an adult woman with no SEN to manage to control herself and not physically attack a disabled child! That says a lot about attitudes to SEN not just on MN but in society as a whole. No one wants their child to be shoved at school, of course not, but people are blaming the child not the school which is wrong imo.

Oh ffs a zombie thread. Sorry!