AIBU to think mother of son’s classmate shouldn’t have grabbed him?

[MissOlivier]

My son has shown some spiteful behaviour towards his class. He has ADHD and ASD. His behaviour is definitely getting harder to manage in a mainstream setting.

I agree bigpharma

@KT63 I said we don't know the circumstances, if she saw her child pushed, shoved whatever and she grabbed the boy she wouldn't get arrested, assuming you live in the UK. The circumstances really make the difference here.

I personally had so many apologies from the school, the parents of the boy, the boy himyself even and oh so many 'plans' in place. Ultimately I really don't see how the school could have done more in my case. I know it was the boy's autism causing the problem, I don't even 'blame' him as such because my son's laugh and loud voice triggered him. He would shout and scream "shut up" to my son in the playground, push him, shove him and slap or hit him. Imagine what that did to my son?

In my opinion sometimes mainstream schools can't manage some autistic children which of course I know is a heartbreaking thought to parents with autistic children but it's my opinion as the Mother of a child who was hurt and scared just for laughing and playing in the playground at school.

It sounds like an awful situation for all involved. However, the attacks on that poor girl need to stop immediately. The school, parents, and boy need to be working together to stop this as a matter of urgency.

The girl's mother attacking the boy is a different issue. I think you should ask to hear the mother's side of the story before reporting though. If what your son said is 100% true, then you should report her.

I'm sorry if I missed it - but what did your son say happened up until the time she grabbed him? You said that usually he has headphones on when walking home - but I have not read what actually happened before the lead up.
My son has ASD and I understand how difficult it must be for you and your son. But unfortunately as you know there are no circumstances where physical violence is OK towards either this girl or your son. I think the school or the council need to step up and sort out something that works better for your son if anything at school is triggering him to be violent. If this girl was my daughter and the school repeatedly failed to protect her - I would not lash out at the other child but I might ring the community police for advice. I know children are legally responsible from the age of 10 so I would expect the police would have some coping strategy experience or advice.

He needs help to manage such outbursts. There’s nothing that can be done about his ASD, that’s not his fault. But he must be given additional support to help with the loud noises and distractions if it’s causing him to lash out.

He’s 12 now and will soon be hitting puberty and may grow to be a lot bigger than that girl. I can’t imagine the disaster it would cause for him (and others) if he’s still behaving like this in a year or two.

I was going to do a different thread in SEN, but I know a lot of helpful people have posted on here, so just wanted to answer some of them.

He normally only shoves in lessons. He wears ear defenders in corridors, but these are often flicked off and pulled off (usually by older kids) and this can cause a lot of distress and potential violent outbursts. In lessons he can’t wear them as he needs to be able to hear.

He would go over to the pupil (and just keep saying “stop, stop, stop” or “please, please, please”) and at times, this is enough for a teacher to realise he has the potential to get violent if his triggers are not managed. Usually he is asked to return to his seat and the person/people is asked to quieten down. He has 5 lessons a day, he isn’t removed from them all, 5 days a week. However, usually after he has gone up to the pupil and says “stop, stop, stop”, etc. and a teacher doesn’t notice, or if the child takes the piss out of him (happens a lot) - he’s even had violence towards him for it, hell then get very distressed and that’s when the violence can happen.

On the walk home, he has told me what happened. I obviously believe him, especially as his blazer is damaged and he came home very distressed. This girl never walks home with him/near him, so I’m unsure why her mother was even near him. He focuses on detail and can give me an almost picture perfect image, and anyone who knows him, knows this.

He describes that the mother came in front of him. He looked up and back down, she lifted his face up, he ignored and kept walking. She then grabbed the collar of his blazer... and shouted words he couldn’t hear. That’s what happened just before the incident.

Also, my son is a small 11 year old boy. I know he won’t always be (it worries me, of course) but at the moment, he is smaller than most of the girls in his year (the boys seem smaller in general, unless they are going through puberty) and is one of the smallest.

Also, this mother does know he has autism, not from the school, but from me. By this stage, I’ve obviously been into school for meetings with the mother and girl (and apologised and tried to explain my son’s behaviour).

There is a SEN school an hour away, it’s not easy to get in. Most of the children there are mute.

OP do you have any idea what you'll do if this continues? The school is clearly inadequate for his needs - it shouldn't be, they should step up but do you feel there is more they can/will do if it continues? Is there a chance the girl may lose it with him one day and start hitting back? This is just a ridiculous situation for everyone involved but it's one that no doubt is going on in many schools across the UK.

My 7 year old has been bullied for over a year, including being physically hit frequently. The child doesn't have a diagnosis of any SEN but that's not to say there won't be. I've been to the board of governors, the LEA, the school, social services, I've been promised over and over that the other child will have someone watch him the entire time, he's had support, punishments ... nothing has worked. I was missing Uni so much to go to school meetings, to go and collect my son early when he'd been hit again and to be with my son when he felt too frightened to go to school, I had to leave Uni (costing me thousands) with a view to homeschool because there were no school spaces available for my son. This other child has had such a massive impact on our entire lives, my son is seeing a counsellor because he thinks he's bullied because he's stupid and ugly (he's not), it's making his OCD ten times worse which means some days we can't leave the house. My son, finally, has a school place elsewhere and starts Monday - his last day at his old school is today, he won't be going because once again he was violently attacked yesterday - but now he has to leave all his friends behind which will cause him anxiety and make his OCD worse, but we're left with no choice.

I'm not saying that your sons behaviour is having as much as an impact on this girl as that, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. If it is impacting every aspect of their lives like it is ours, if they have had constant assurances from the school that it will be sorted, that there are plans in place, meetings etc and it's all amounted to nothing then I can understand the mothers frustrations completely (I imagine you and your son are frustrated about it not being dealt with too!) - obviously that doesn't for one moment excuse her grabbing your son, 100% not, but I'm just explaining from the other side of things just how much it it can impact on peoples lives - God knows it's made me think some irrational thoughts I'm just thankful I've never reached a place where it's made me act irrationally too.

has gone up to the pupil and says “stop, stop, stop”, etc. and a teacher doesn’t notice

This is concerning, because it means that there is not enough support for your boy available in the classroom. What are school doing about this?

Am struggling to understand why he does not have a full time LA when the hubbub of the classroom and irritating distracting kids can trigger him. He needs to be supervised for his own sake. The school is not handling this well at all. It is not acceptable for an adult to attack a child outside school for something going on inside school. Verbal or physical. Not on at all.
I can see why but that does not make it right.You need to report this to the school. The parent needs speaking to before it escalates.
I would be tempted to arrange a meeting with head, sen lead and parent liaison to go through the issues, classroom management, issuing of work, management of his education and the presence of a FT TA. If the school will not show any responsibility then try your local autism support team for help and consider other local schools that will work with you both.
Secondary school can be a nightmare for kids with some sen. We spent four long years battling to get the support needed and the understanding of our child's condition recognised. This was despite policies, so called training etc. I even offered to run a session for the teachers on the conditions to help them help other kids who may come through the school with the same (their teacher guidance notes on them were not helpful) and it was exhausting. They finally started working with us just before GCSE. Too late.

So she tried to talk to him and he ignored her and walked away, so she grabbed the back of his blazer as he had his back to her? That's a whole different ballgame to her marching up and grabbing him by the scruff of the neck?

It's not really lamagrey. Keeping your head down and walking away is a very normal response to someone being aggressive/angry with you in public. As is blanking someone when you're not quite sure what's going on or what to say.

Im late to this thread but a long long time ago I posted on here about a dad grabbing my then 6 year old dd by the shoulders in a play ground ( abroad) when his dd about 2/3 was knocked over by dd and some older kids trying to play with this spinning thing. The play equipment clearly said - 6 and up his dd was impeding their play, but they had tried to include her and be nice etc but in the physicality they got carried away! He stormed up to my dd grabbed her by the shoulders and shouted in her face.

I posted on MN about it and the response was - that was fine

It must have been very hard for a child with autism to know how to react to the girl's mother confronting him like that, and coming close enough to lift his face. No wonder he blanked her.

He has headphones in, he couldn’t hear her. He is socially awkward and finds socialising difficult. He wouldn’t remove headphones to hear someone.

I don’t really think it’s acceptable for her to even try and talk to him. We have had meetings where we try to discuss things. I appreciate it’s hard for her and her daughter, but going through my son is never going to change the situation. She grabbed his collar, near the front. It’s damaged, she must have pulled it bloody hard.

I have no idea what the future holds, I do my absolute best going into school and fighting for him, I’ve been told he can’t have a LSA for each lesson as he is able to learn well (gets the grades) and he only needs the assistant if he is having an outburst and they claim they have that support in place as his designated SEN will collect him when that happens...

If this is a sen school - then presumably this girl also has some SEN issues and her talking 'loudly' maybe be part of this? It would be especially noticeable if as the OP has pointed out that a lot of the other children are mute.

This isn’t an SEN school. There is one an hour away but it’s extremely difficult to get in and most of the children are mute.

1. It’s impossible for him to get in.

1. It would most likely effect his learning and development, academically.

Am struggling to understand why he does not have a full time LA when the hubbub of the classroom and irritating distracting kids can trigger him.

Budget I imagine. In my school only the most severe disabilities received support; these were usually physical disabilities because they were the most visible. If the pupil was physically able then in most cases the teacher was expected to manage them (which didn't offer adequate support because the teacher was busy teaching the rest of the class and usually not willing to intervene in the case of physical violence).

OP - as an aside - have you tried or considered sound therapy to help with your son's sensitivities? my son has ASD and we recently tried sound therapy - although my son does not have sensitive hearing so it was for other reasons - but I believe that sound therapy can also reduce hearing sensitivities. Over on the SEN chat space some parents seem to get offered sound therapy for sensitive hearing as part of a occupational therapy type care package on the NHS but I can't be sure my memory is correct.

and he only needs the assistant if he is having an outburst and they claim they have that support in place as his designated SEN will collect him when that happens...

The purpose of him having support would be to prevent the outburst occurring in the first place, thus mitigating the impact of your ds's disability on both his learning and the learning of others.

On a wider note, to those who have blithely said that op's ds 'needs to manage noise better' or the equivalent:

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to manage reactions to noise?

To the OP's ds that noise most likely feels like a physical assault, without a free pass to leave the room (does he have that kind of latitude OP?) or put headphones on he is being expected to endure a sustained assault. Violence is unacceptable; that applies in equal measure to the op's ds lashing out, and her ds being expected to endure the equivalent or worse. By now this girl knows that her volume triggers the OP's son (whether overload or pain), to continually and knowing do that is just as unacceptable as op's ds becoming aggressive.

OP, I hope you are able to get your ds the help he needs, the school appears to be doing a poor job of safeguarding all those at risk in this situation. The girl's mother grabbing your ds is beyond unacceptable, I'd report that to the school as well.

I haven't RTT but I do feel that the school is failing both children here. Your son clearly needs more support than he is getting to learn in a classroom setting. His fellow pupils, including this girl, need more support than they are getting to learn in a safe and protected environment. Whilst it is not your son's fault, his behaviour is bound to be contrary to the schools anti-bullying policies. I'm not being goady here - I am aware that your son can't help it - it is the responsibility of the school to take action to stop the situation. With an NT child the action should be to point out why the behaviour is wrong and then impose sanctions if it continues. With an autistic child the action should be to prevent/take early action in triggering situations. If now it is April this girl is still be assaulted then the school has failed to take action. I'm not suprised this mother has snapped but she has snapped at the wrong person - she was completly wrong to comfrnt your son let alone grab him - she should be confronting (verbally) the safeguarding officer/head/chair of governors for failing to protect her daughter and apply the schools policies because your son's behaviour to her daughter may well be seriously detrimental to her well being. A person who is a victim of bullying behaviour will suffer whether or not their antagonist can help it. It is also possible that this girl has ADHD or similar if she shouts out a lot in class - so we may have two non NT kids being failed in this instance.

I think that you should go to the school and report the incident but if you could find it within you to do so with sympathy for both sides and ask them to deal with it to keep this girl safe as well as your son supported it might lead to a better result?

I think a meeting between all of the involved parties is needed.

The situation is unacceptable for both your son and the girl involved.

The school can not possibly allow a situation to continue where a pupil is distressed enough to physically assault another pupil.

Have you complained to the governors about them failing to give your so the support he needs. Have you suggested to the mother of the girl involved that she do the same?

This is an awful situation for all involved, it sounds as though everyone is at the end of their tether and action needs to be taken now before things escalate any further.

Wow, reading this thread has made me realise how horrendous it must be to be a parent of a child with special needs.

People are unbelievable. He is an 11 year old with autism. If you have any concerns about his behaviour as another adult you go to teacher/ school/ other parents.

I'm sorry OP - I didn't realise how uncaring people can be until I read this.

Maybe the girls mum was fed up with her daughter being pushed. No she shouldn't have pulled him. Maybe she spoke to him which he ignored due to the headphones, Two wrongs don't make a right, and your sons disability does excuse your sons behaviour, and it does not excuse the mothers either. You understand your sons triggers and I understand the mother speaking to your child.

as an autistic parent of 3 autistic kids, I agree that inclusion is OFTEN shit and was only designed as an excuse to shut down loads of SEN schools. Yes and that pool of expertise was lost forever. Even Baroness Warnock reponsible for The Warnock Report criticised the implementation of its recommendations.
The Government’s policy of inclusion has come under criticism recently—including by Baroness Warnock in her 2005 article Special Educational Needs: a new look—for its confused and changing definition which is reported to be causing the closure of special
schools and “forcing” some children into mainstream schools when it is not in their best interests to be there, resulting in distress for pupils and parents.
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmeduski/478/478i.pdf
Of course there isn't enough money to train staff in SEN provision just as special schools were closed to save money. It's shit for everyone.

Absolutely the mum should not have confronted your son and she had no right to lay hands on him.

I can empathise with her anger and protective instincts over her daughter but her behaviour is still unacceptable and she is responsible for her actions completely.

I am sure that your DS was terrified and I really hope that the school very firmly intervene so that this doesn't happen again.

To try and take something useful out of this could you explain to your DS, that the mum was very angry and upset because of the shoving, to the point where she just had to do something. In the same way as DS' anger takes over and makes him do stuff he shouldn't, the same happened to this mum and as a result DS was very scared. It might be a chance to understand more about empathy and the consequences of his actions.

Your DS may not be able to comprehend that but maybe it could help him to link actions and consequences more. I have an autistic friend who really benefitted from that kind of conversation as a teenager but I know it is not appropriate for all autistic people.