AIBU to think mother of son’s classmate shouldn’t have grabbed him?

[MissOlivier]

My son has shown some spiteful behaviour towards his class. He has ADHD and ASD. His behaviour is definitely getting harder to manage in a mainstream setting.

@TheMonkeyMummy thank you. I’m sorry your son is facing judgement and nastiness. I grew up with it, and now I’m seeing my own children go through it. It breaks me when they cry because someone has said they’re a “freak” or “abnormal” or one of the horrid words still apparently socially acceptable about people with disabilities.

All of mine are autistic, and when people tell me they’re sorry or that it must be hard I tell them that it’s the outside world which makes it hard. It’s the bullying, the sly digs, the laughing, the staring, the outright mocking. The act of making them outcasts because they think or speak differently.

DD for example sounds like she was born and raised in Mississippi. Apparently a common part of autism in females (we’re Scottish). So she is laughed at and pointed at for something she cannot help and cannot understand why people are mocking her. She’s 4 btw and this has happened with adults too!

DS2 struggles with enunciation, every word is an effort. When he speaks I see how far he has come, how hard he has fought to be able to vocalise his needs and feelings. But he is mocked because he sounds “different” or is difficult to understand. He’s 3.

DS1 sounds cut glass posh, his vocabulary is incredible and he speaks very dramatically (think Brian Blessed but not as loud). He has endured years of bullying (physical and mental) and adults again have been part of this, sniggering, pointing at him and making snide comments.

And they say it’s my children who aren’t “normal”?

As an adult I struggled, but as a mother, as my children were diagnosed I decided to fight back. Calmly, with a view to educating and explaining rather than exploding. That’s not to say I never have exploded, but I am hopeful that by explaining as an autistic person who has spent years acquiring the tools I need to defend my children and hopefully change the world for them through explanation and education then at least a few people will stop and think about the impact of their actions.

@Smeddum good post, it never ceases to amaze me that discrimination and victimisation of kids with Disabilities is seen to be more preferable than abiding by the Equality Act.

Kindness isn't a weakness, it's actually the quality I value above all

Yes!!!

@enterthedragon thank you. Sadly, I’m no longer surprised. It’s the default position, because it’s easy, it’s lazy and it means people can judge away and make hurtful and nasty comments because it’s “socially acceptable”.

So was racism 30 years ago. It was never right, never kind and never nice. I wonder if in 30 years some of the posters on here will be rightly ashamed of themselves?

What I'm taking from this thread is that the current system is failing everyone.

A child with ASD is being left to cope the best way he can, resulting in behaviour which then makes him the target for name calling, ridicule and possibly the potential of getting into real trouble if he seriously hurts someone.

The girl is being failed because it must be horrible to have to go to school every day facing the prospect of being attacked, regardless of the factors causing it. It doesn't make a punch hurt any less if the attacker can't help it does it? You can try to empathise but if you are being physically hurt it's not that easy to rise above it.

The other class mates can't be learning if lessons are being disrupted.

The school doesn't, on the surface, appear to be handling this well and someone has to hold the school and the LA to account. Unfortunately, because of privacy rules, that will have to be the boy's mum. The girl's parents can create merry hell about the attacks on the girl but they won't be able to organise better support for the boy or discuss the EHCP (and rightly so) so it has to come from the boy's parents.

I don't agree with witch hunts, or children being bullied or any kind of discrimination but I wish some people would try to see it from the girl and her parents point of view.

When my daughter was in reception there was a boy in her class who used to attack children on a daily basis. I have no idea what his situation was. He was a very quiet, withdrawn little boy and would never play with the other children. My daughter would come home regularly with injuries and becoming more upset. Having spoken to the teacher we were told that this boy was sat next to my daughter because she was quiet and didn't react to him!! At their first nativity he was sat next to her and spent the whole concert poking her, kicking her, nudging her and pulling her. She ignored him but we watched her getting more distressed and eventually start crying. At this point her teacher removed her and brought her to sit with me - so she missed out on her school play because of this little boy. For the first time I witnessed what her life was like on a daily basis. I regularly spoke to the teacher and the headteacher but it was so frustrating - the conversations could only go so far because they couldn't discuss this little boy with me. I was powerless to say or do anything other than insist on my daughter being moved.

I did feel very sorry for the boy - he became more isolated, wasn't invited to parties and no one went to his because the children were scared of him. I have no idea what his situation was. No one spoke to us about it. We were just expected to tolerate the daily assaults etc which actually is a big ask. As sympathetic and inclusive as you might be how do you stand by as your child gets hurt, begs not to go to school etc?

Eventually he was moved schools when he cut someone's hair with a pair of scissors. I still do feel very sorry for him. He wasn't liked, he had no friends and looked like a very sad little boy but realistically what could we do? His mum didn't talk to anyone - I guess she felt terrible too.

There definitely needs to be a huge change in how classrooms are managed so that children with SEN aren't isolated but I guess that at least in part, some information has to be shared with classmates and parents - even if it's strategies and ideas of how best to support the child. Even makes me feel uncomfortable though - the child should have a right to privacy - but how else can you ask other students to accept some types of behaviour, if they don't understand it or are scared for their own safety?

@Sweetiebaby some information has to be shared with classmates and parents - even if it's strategies and ideas of how best to support the child. Even makes me feel uncomfortable though - the child should have a right to privacy - but how else can you ask other students to accept some types of behaviour, if they don't understand it or are scared for their own safety?

Just for clarity, no information has to be shared with anyone at all, the child does have the right to privacy.

When talking to other children about behaviour you use generic examples, so something like, Some people may not cope well in noisy places, we can help this by doing x y and z, primary age kids are (on the whole) quite receptive to simple statements. Not sure about Secondary age though since our ds was in specialist independent education by then.

If information was shared to combat bullying, to prevent deliberate sensory overload/avoid confrontation as a result of sensory overload, with careful management, it could be a positive thing.

Having said that, the kind of people who bully, demean and sneer at autistic people are the kind of people who do so even in possession of all the information, so sadly I think that in practice it would be open to abuse and misuse.

More information on disabilities in general, about inclusion, about understanding for others wouldn’t go amiss though.

Inclusion isn’t a word, it pisses me off when people trot it out as if it is. It isn’t, it’s action. It’s day to day. That is what is missing.

You've said this happens on a semi-regular basis, does the mother know he's autistic? Maybe she thought he was just another neuro-typical child who was picking on her daughter and wanted him to stop and she didn't understand the situation. Equally the girl may have exaggerated or told her certain things when confiding in her mother so it may have been a misunderstanding on her part, but yes grabbing your boy does seem a little extreme

@Doh9899 OP said upthread that the mother does know he is autistic and that they’ve had meetings in school before.

www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2015/may/23/secret-teacher-support-inclusion-but-not-at-any-cost

A very interesting article which talks about some of the issues on this thread.

That’s a very well thought out article, and I agree with most of it.

@enterthedragon

I do understand the privacy issue. It's just very difficult isn't it if eg your child is being hit, or attacked on a regular basis. How does the victim or their parents know how to react to this? If it's a NT child who just happens to be a bully I would react in one way. If it was a child with ASD and this behaviour was a manifestation of the ASD I would behave differently. Surely that is fair enough? But how can anyone know if they don't have that information?

It's incredibly difficult isn't it because I don't think one child's rights should trump the rights of another so how do you manage this?

In the first instance the school has to make more adjustments to try and minimise the outbursts. But then what? Should the girl be moved to another class, possibly disrupting her friendship group or maybe moving out of the appropriate set? When all is said and done, it isn't her fault that she has appeared to become the focus of this boy's outbursts, unless she is doing it maliciously, in which case she should absolutely be moved. If it is a case of her just triggering something in him then is it fair that she has to be penalised?

I still think that more resources would help this situation - maybe the OPs son needs more flexible arrangements at school, or needs some individual 1:1 quiet time within lessons to give him some relief? For what it's worth I have been in classrooms and thee is no way that I could concentrate with the noise and fashionable kinetic learning which seems to be much favoured and I am NT as far as I know.

Nope, still easier to sit in judgement of a child, who is struggling to cope in an overwhelming environment with little or no support and was assaulted by an adult.

Aside from a few posters, in general I'm seeing a lot of very balanced responses that are saying that BOTH children are being failed, and the mother shouldn't have touched the son. People are seeing that the needs of one child does not necessarily outweigh the needs of another.

I have 27 in my classroom. Two diagnosed with autism. One with an intellectual disability. One dealing with a parent with alcoholism and drug addiction. One recently arrived refugee who speaks no English, who I suspect has additional needs but can't be assessed until he has had two years of English language instruction. One that was sexually abused by her father. Another child dealing with human services because his father hits him. One came from a school where they were bullied and are still struggling to cope. Two students working at a level two years ahead. Four working up to two years below. One undiagnosed student who attacks me if not given full attention when he wants it.

Every single one of those children has the same right to access education and be treated fairly in the classroom by me. Sometimes adjustments need to be made. Sometimes those adjustments are in conflict with the adjustments needed for other students, and so a compromise has to be made somewhere, respecting that all students have the right to learn in a safe and supportive environment.

It is ALL students that are being failed here when schools do not have enough money to give teachers the supports they need to provide that environment for all students.

I don’t have the energy anymore, I really don’t.
Yes of course all children have the right to an education, my comment was aimed at the NIMBYs who didn’t want any children who needed extra support around their children.

So please, can you point out exactly where I said that not all children are entitled to an education? Or that any of the children you mention aren’t in need of (and deserve) the extra support?

And no, the needs of one don’t outweigh the needs of another. So why is all the sympathy reserved for the girl? Who has “the right” to be loud and not for the boy being laughed at when he’s desperately asking for her not to be so loud? Why is nobody pointing out that the teacher should be stepping in to protect the girl at that point? Or that a reasonable adjustment would be that the boy can sit in a quiet area for a while to unwind from the overload?

So she has the right to be loud, has the right not to be shoved (both true)

But he doesn’t have the right not to be laughed at, and doesn’t have the right to be protected from things which overwhelm him.

Tell me, is part of their rights that it’s ok to mock and laugh at a distressed boy begging not to be overwhelmed? Because funnily enough that post from OP has been largely ignored. Isn’t that convenient?

Err actually I have said that why isn't he allowed to move to a quiet safe space whenever he feels that he needs to.

And I and many PPs have said that the teacher needs to step in.

It absolutely is not right that he is being laughed at and that has to be stopped immediately.

I also don't think that the girl has a 'right to be loud'.

In any group setting I think the only way it can work is that everyone has to conform and modulate their behaviour, otherwise chaos reigns.

If the girl is being louder than everyone else in the class then surely that is a disruption for all the students and the teacher and should be addressed, in the same way as if other students decided to wander around, call out or use their phones. I'm not aware that the OP has said that though? The girl might simply have a voice that is higher pitched or carries more ie not because she is being intentionally disruptive but just her natural way of speaking that for whatever reason upsets the OPs son.

Is it just the noise from this one particular girl that is a problem? So if she was removed from class would the problem cease to be? Given that the boy wears ear defenders in the corridors and head phones walking home I'm guessing not - that this girl would be replaced by another trigger.

I have noticed that some main stream schools are definitely more disciplined (not sure if this is the word I'm looking for) and that the classrooms are quieter and more formal. Other schools do seem to promote kinesthetic learning, lots of group work, talking etc and so the classrooms are noisier. Not saying one is better than the other but I know I would prefer the former and wouldn't learn in the latter. Maybe it's worth the OP looking to see if there is a "better fit" school for her son where it suits his needs as an individual better?

It doesn’t really matter if this girl is screaming through a megaphone. She still has a right to access education without fear of attack.

We don’t allow teachers to cane or otherwise violently attack children who are too naughty or misbehave anymore. Why is it apparently okay for a pupil to dish out an even more extreme punishment?

Why is it apparently okay for a pupil to dish out an even more extreme punishment?

Where did I say that? Anywhere? I didn’t. What I’ve said, repeatedly, is that the teacher hasn’t stepped in when the boy is clearly distressed and prevented him lashing out.
But why I’m even responding to someone who would be ok with caning a child in distress is beyond me.

@SweetieBaby if you didn’t say any of it then my comment wasn’t aimed at you. I actually agree with your last comment.

It doesn’t really matter if this girl is screaming through a megaphone. She still has a right to access education without fear of attack

Are you aware that extreme noise levels present to some autistic people as severely as if they were being attacked? Or do you just not care?

I don't think that's what Mightymucks meant tbh. She's saying that in the same way that teachers aren't allowed to cane children any more, children shouldn't be allowed to lash out.

But nobody has said it's okay to lash out, of course it isn't. We're saying that the teacher should be intervening before it escalates, that is to say she should intervene when OP's DS starts showing signs of distress.

We're saying that the teacher should be intervening before it escalates, that is to say she should intervene when OP's DS starts showing signs of distress

That’s what I’ve been saying all along.

What I don’t understand how the teacher is going to find the time to teach if he or she is having to spend so much time watching out for children who might become overwhelmed. The whole endeavour sounds doomed to fail. Fail everyone.

From OPs post she says her son begs people to stop and it’s clear that he’s distressed. It’s not having to look out for signs. So I can’t really understand why it’s hard to tell?

Its not as simple as the teacher intervening. By the time the OP's son is begging he's already actutely distressed. How often is this happening? How much learning time is he missing, being upset and having to calm down again? How often will the rest of the class have to put down their pens and wait whilst the teacher sorts this out? How many other children in the class need special assistance or adjustments that aren't being provided, or have to be remembered and provided by this one teacher? In a 1 hour session. And then, next session, there'll be another class and another lot of student's requirements to remember.

Inclusion needs money in order to work. But no one wants to spend that money. Much easier to pile responsibility on individual teachers and blame them when it doesn't work.