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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that Scouting should be one group now?

247 replies

Flatpackjackie · 16/04/2018 21:52

As girls are allowed in Beavers, Cubs and Scouts, why aren't boys allowed in Rainbows, Brownies and Guides?

Or better still, just have one group for Beavers/Rainbows ages, one for Cubs/Brownies, etc?

Seems outdated and daft to separate by sex, especially as the Scouting groups include girls anyway.

(Not a TAT, not about trans issues at all.)

OP posts:
MsAwesomeDragon · 16/04/2018 21:56

Scouts and guides are compelling separate organisations and it is up to the membership of those organisations to decide on their membership. They may do activities together occasionally, but they are not the same organisation.

user1487194234 · 16/04/2018 21:58

They are separate organisations
Scouts decided to take in girls some years ago ,mainly as their numbers were falling
Guiding has consistently decided not take in boys
Many people in Guiding feel that girls benefit from a single sex organisation
That is entirely their decision,and not affected by Scouts or any other unrelated group deciding to go co-ed

Fruitcorner123 · 16/04/2018 21:58

The argument is that girf guiding is for girls it is a 'safe space' for them. I think girls need a space where they can be themselves and develop their confidence. For many girls the presence of boys will prevent this as the boys have been more preprogrammed to take charge and do things their way and girls more likely to be passive.

QueenofLouisiana · 16/04/2018 21:59

It was suggested that they merge- GG wanted to remain female only in order to allow girls a solely female space. Scouts had so many girls who wanted to join, and at the time not enough boys, they had to open up.
I run a Beaver colony (and only agreed to do so in order to give tge colony a female leader and make it easier to take in girls). I could easily fill up the colony with girls as I have so many on the list. I aim to take a balance of both boys and girls. We are oversubscribed and can’t take everyone.

Chickychoccyegg · 16/04/2018 22:01

Rainbows/brownies/guides are a separate group altogether - girlguiding uk.
I don't see anything wrong with it how it is, girls and boys don't have to both do everything the same, nothing wrong with girl groups/boy groups sometimes, and just because scouts let girls join doesn't mean girl guiding should have to change their rules!

Skyechasemarshalontheway · 16/04/2018 22:02

I joined scouts over 15 years ago. They have accepted girls for at least 2 decades.

EduCated · 16/04/2018 22:03

As others have said, completely separate and have been since they each began over 100 years ago. Like saying why aren’t Tesco and Sainsburys one supermarket.

user1487194234 · 16/04/2018 22:11

I do think Guiding will come under increasing pressure on this issue Sadly in my view

Fruitcorner123 · 16/04/2018 22:17

I disagree user i am not sure there's really the appetite amongst boys and girl guiding is advertised as a safe space for girls, it's part of their appeal.

Glumglowworm · 16/04/2018 22:29

Guiding and Scouting are separate organisations, although they have much in common.

Scouting chose to take girls because of falling numbers. Guiding has chosen to remain girls only.

I’m a leader with Brownies and Guides and definitely feel it’s important to give girls space to do things without boys around. Personally I think boys should also have space to do things without girls around fwiw.

Onlyjoinedforthisthread · 16/04/2018 22:31

Fruitcorner please point us in the direction of adverts that promote girl guiding as a safeplace

DontMakeMeShushYou · 16/04/2018 22:38

Onlyjoinedforthisthread

See www.girlguiding.org.uk/information-for-parents/how-guiding-benefits-girls/ The first sentence under Girlguiding is unique reads, We offer a safe, welcoming girl-only space for girls and young women ...

Onlyjoinedforthisthread · 16/04/2018 22:53

Thank you

Flatpackjackie · 16/04/2018 23:38

Why do children, Brownies age, need a 'safe space' from boys?

OP posts:
Janniohlosty123 · 16/04/2018 23:44

I agree. Get me a space where boys can get away from girls then... oh wait...

BackforGood · 16/04/2018 23:44

Whether they do or don't, they are 2 completely separate organisations, so can't just merge into one thing. It gives families choice well, in areas where there are both.

nmg85 · 16/04/2018 23:45

A safe space to express themselves etc is more what it means. Some lack confidence and a girl only space allows them to grow in confidence and reach their full potential.

nmg85 · 16/04/2018 23:46

It was the scout association who decided to accept girls as well, girl guiding shouldn't be punished or criticised for a decision they didn't make.

Aliceinwanderland · 16/04/2018 23:50

I like that my dd has a female only space to express herself She is so positive about being with girls who get on well together without the boys messing about. I think it's good for the girls' confidence.

hibbledibble · 16/04/2018 23:54

Op this has been done multiple times!

They are separate organisations, what one does has no bearing on the other..

Onlyoldontheoutside · 16/04/2018 23:56

When my DD was in primary school.she was one of only6girls in her class,the girls were slit up and my DD became very discouraged as in any joint work the boys either took over or messed about.
She joined guides as I felt she needed to learn to make herself heard in a group.It did help but a few hour a week v everyday at school means that even as a teen she doesn't like to speak out in class as her classes and year group are still 3:1 boys to girls.

roseannabanana · 16/04/2018 23:56

No way. I adored brownies and Guides and made lifelong friends there. I thrived in that female-only environment.

RBBMummy · 17/04/2018 00:03

They are very different and suit different types of people. You might as well say we should merge dance and martial arts. I've been both. Boys are allowed in guides but individual packs are not forced to let boys join.

MarieVanGoethem · 17/04/2018 04:44

Why do children, Brownies age, need a 'safe space' from boys?

For my Brownies, our safe girl-only space allows them to take the lead in all activities, obviously, but they notice it most when it comes to STEM-based & physical activities that they're not being pushed aside by their male peers as happens [sometimes literally] in other contexts. At Brownies they don't ever hear "NameOfThing isn't for girls"/"girls can't do NameOfThing" or similar versions of the gender-stereotyped nonsense that's used to exclude & put them down elsewhere - very much the reverse, in fact: we actively remind them that they can like/wear any colours & play with any toys & women can do any jobs [that they are qualified for] & at their age they're just as physically strong & fast as boys are - & they'll always be as clever as they are. Because they are, sadly, being told otherwise elsewhere.

My Brownies who play football for a local team find themselves excluded from games at playtime "because girls can't play football". We have to play an adapted version in meetings for safety reasons related to the design of our hall, but play we do. One wee girl's even being told by the boys in her class that she's "not allowed" to support a men's football team because she's a girl - we've reassured her on that & she's feeling happier knowing her Sixer has been to lots of a local premiership team's matches.

The Brownies get interrupted & talked over in class by male classmates. When we discuss things at Brownies that doesn't happen - they take turns to speak; they know that I'll get to them; & on the VERY rare occasions anyone talks out of turn (usually when we're discussing plans for the term & there are Excited Squeakings/a couple of Brownies are Suddenly Inspired & want to add something to their Six's suggestion list) I remind them they've to be quiet & listen to the person who's speaking. My Unit regularly has Brownies arrive who'll not speak at all in any discussions (I'll keep track of who's spoken & ask Brownies who haven't if they've any ideas etc), will barely answer the register even, and after just a term they'll start talking; by the time they leave they're leading discussions with their Six.

When we've had girls either transfer in from Cubs or do both Brownies & Cubs, we've been told Brownies lets them do activities they wouldn't get to at Cubs (like craft & drama) & that the atmosphere is much calmer. I realise the stereotype is that Brownies do craft while Cubs are off hiking etc, & in some areas Cub Units provide more opportunities for physical activities than Brownie ones (it should be said that Scouting has an infrastructure that supports this) but my Unit makes a very real effort to ensure that we provide opportunities to Have Adventures Outside. We've no outdoor space other than a (locked) car park (with multiple hazards) where we meet, so we hold meetings in local parks/on the Heath/at the nature reserve. We play hide & seek in the dark, we bug-hunt, pond-dip & climb trees. We've provided opportunities for the Brownies to try climbing & sailing & indoor caving & zorbing. Spending a day doing the Circus Performer badge last summer was pretty full-on physical too. When we do these things, there are no boys there to push them out of the way &/or tell them they can't do it or they're doing it wrong or they're rubbish at it. Obviously not all boys do that - but it's behaviour all my Brownies experience from their peers. Although Ban Bossy is US-based, the idea holds true in the UK too. Have a look at Girlguiding's most recent Girls' Attitudes Survey to see how pervasive gender stereotypes are even at Brownie age - can you not see why girls would benefit from a space of their own where those ideas can more easily be challenged? You can access earlier surveys if you scroll down the page - they're interesting reading, if somewhat depressing at times.

Some girls, of course, need a space away from boys for faith reasons, the obvious group being Muslim girls. It is also the case for some of the Jewish population - when I was at university I spent a day during one of the holidays volunteering at an event for refugees with a Leader from a Jewish Unit who was fascinated by my Catholic Brownies & Guides (it's possible I was the first Catholic she'd met tbh) & membership of Girlguiding allowed girls & young women in her community to try new things & gain new skills - but their participation was possible only because Girlguiding's a single-sex organisation.

Very sadly, given the rise in cases of that kind, we will almost certainly have some young members who need a space away from boys due to a history of [sexual] abuse by their male peers.

The point, however, of a "safe girl-only space" isn't vilifying boys or suggesting their presence automatically makes a space unsafe. The point is the positive impact of homosociality & that girls are known to benefit hugely from it; & the "safety" of the space is a reference both to allowing girls to be themselves without fear of judgement/censure; & to the fact that they are protected from harm by the way Girlguiding is run.

DailyWailSucksSnails · 17/04/2018 05:10

Scouts (scout leader tells me) would love to merge with the Guides; the Guides have a huge amount more money!! Scouts are scrimping along. Their traditions are too different to easily merge.