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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that Scouting should be one group now?

247 replies

Flatpackjackie · 16/04/2018 21:52

As girls are allowed in Beavers, Cubs and Scouts, why aren't boys allowed in Rainbows, Brownies and Guides?

Or better still, just have one group for Beavers/Rainbows ages, one for Cubs/Brownies, etc?

Seems outdated and daft to separate by sex, especially as the Scouting groups include girls anyway.

(Not a TAT, not about trans issues at all.)

OP posts:
SuburbanRhonda · 17/04/2018 08:32

If I had daughters I wouldn’t allow them to join the Guides.

Even if they wanted to? That sounds very controlling.

Toomanytealights · 17/04/2018 08:33

Current knowledge

Grandmaswagsbag · 17/04/2018 08:33

Own experience. That’s why I said that I hope it’s changed but to be honest I find the whole concept somewhat creepy and I just can’t shake it. Probably not the best person to comment on this thread really.

budgiegirl · 17/04/2018 08:34

I think it only perpetuates the myth that women and girls are precious flowers who need to be kept away from men and boys

I disagree. I fully accept that some girls don’t need a girl only space, and that’s fine. For those girls, there is scouts, plus a whole host of other mixed sex groups they can join.

But some girls may prefer, require, or infact, benefit from a single sex space such as guides. It doesn’t mean they are precious flowers who need to be kept away from boys.

There’s plenty of evidence, for example, that girls do better in single sex schools. Again , it doesn’t mean they’re precious or delicate, or that all girls will benefit. But it does offer a choice to those who will benefit from it.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 17/04/2018 08:43

If its current toomany why are you talking about alpha male group when scouts has been mixed for 20 years

outabout · 17/04/2018 08:48

There are too many possible discussions to be had in so many directions but the aim of Scouting is to include all young persons and to encourage every one to improve their experience of life by opening up new possibilities.
Every young person is an individual and their 'sex' is immaterial.
Everything in life CAN be viewed as an opportunity and Scouting does it's best to promote a 'Can Do' mentality.
I am not suggesting GG don't but it seems a bit of an opportunity missed in some respects.
One thing that is vital though. All these aspects should be viewed though the eyes of the young people. They definitely don't see things the way parents do. Adults are only facilitators to ensure safety and assistance (but can still have a good time too!).

BertrandRussell · 17/04/2018 08:50

"Current knowledge"

Could you say more?

RunRabbitRunRabbit · 17/04/2018 08:51

toomany are you seriously suggesting that because many boys are 100% nice, girls don't need any protection from sexist attitudes?

AornisHades · 17/04/2018 08:54

I was going to make the same point as budgie about single sex schools. As it happens I dislike single sex schools but I understand they may be better for many girls.
And yes, the Scouts were struggling. They needed female leaders and they couldn't have them while they were male only. I have one dc in GG and one in Scouts as it suits their personality.

ittakes2 · 17/04/2018 08:54

There are girls only and boys only schools - applying your theory these would not be allowed either.

SuburbanRhonda · 17/04/2018 08:56

Everything in life CAN be viewed as an opportunity and Scouting does it's best to promote a 'Can Do' mentality.
I am not suggesting GG don't but it seems a bit of an opportunity missed in some respects.

I’m sure that if GG thought opening up to boys would provide more opportunities for girls to flourish they’d have done it long ago.

GrimDamnFanjo · 17/04/2018 08:57

I strongly support GGA remaining a single sex organisation, for all the excellent reasons outlined above. The GGA however have decided that gender is now the qualifier for membership,

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 17/04/2018 09:02

I thought there were like 50 genders!! (Don't believe in gender myself)

Thats going to get very confusing

ALittleAubergine · 17/04/2018 09:04

When I was a kid, admittedly long time ago in a different country, we had separate scouting groups for boys and girls. But we did activities together as one big group on a regular basis, such as camping, going on trips, competitions, mixed sessions, baking events etc. It was fun and you got to experience best of both worlds.

budgiegirl · 17/04/2018 09:05

They needed female leaders and they couldn't have them while they were male only

Actually, female leaders have always been accepted at scouts.

ghostyslovesheets · 17/04/2018 09:10

anecdotal I know but my mum taught for years in a girls school - she sent us to a mixed school and was fairly anti segregated education ... until she moved to teach in a mixed school. She said no matter how hard she tried to give everyone an equal voice the boys just dominated lessons, dominated her time, spoke over girls - she is now a firm convert to single sex education.

Boys are taught early on to behave in a dominant way - girls not so much - look at how we expect male and female toddlers to behave - often boys are encouraged or excused from being rowdy and boisterous - girls not so much

drspouse · 17/04/2018 09:11

Marie that is a fantastic post.

Rufus sadly that is true but they are getting their knickers in a twist over it.

I have always said, when women earn the same as men and when women are not disproportionally subject to violence, then I'll advocate for Guiding to become mixed.

Girls of Brownie age are pushed into caring/lower earning professions and taught that boys will be boys, they are being set up to earn less and to accept male violence.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 17/04/2018 09:15

drspouse

I agree

I might get 50 friends together, all pick a gender and ask the guiding association if their children can join

roseannabanana · 17/04/2018 09:39

The brownie pack I am familiar with - I am friends with the lady who runs it and help out on occasion - certainly does not just do craft activities. They definitely do a few, particularly around Christmas/Easter/Mothers' day to make gifts for parents, but they also go to the common and have water fights, do outside cooking on disposable barbecues, have campfires, do night hikes, go kayaking and raft building on a local reservoir, have sleepovers at the Science Museum, and tonnes more.

Also, Brownies don't tend to go camping, where they could have 4 tents for girls and 4 for boys. They have pack holiday centres, where all the Brownies sleep in bunk beds in one or two big rooms. There is not the provision in these centres for different genders to sleep separately.

Tanith · 17/04/2018 09:39

“I agree. Get me a space where boys can get away from girls then... oh wait...”

Why do people post silly statements like this when they are so easy to refute??

There are boys-only schools, Scouts may accept girls but are not obliged to - a group near me is still all-boys, there’s the Boys Brigade (and Girls Brigade).

boys-brigade.org.uk

roseannabanana · 17/04/2018 09:41

I might get 50 friends together, all pick a gender and ask the guiding association if their children can join

Rufus - I think that's a rather immature response.

I understand the concern about adult men claiming to be female to get into female spaces, but this is children we are talking about.

For a child born a boy to go to brownies, they would have to have fully transitioned and be living as a girl. Children who are confused about their gender are not the enemy, and I think you need to grow up.

drspouse · 17/04/2018 09:52

Tanith I found out recently that Boys Brigade is now mixed.
I'm assuming for membership reasons like Scouting.

Children who are confused about their gender are not the enemy

Totally agree which is why GG should NOT be telling girls who identify as boys (or even as "non-binary" whatever that means) shouldn't be members.

reddressblueshoes · 17/04/2018 09:54

There's a thread in AIBU where a posters 10 year old child child tried to join in with boys playing football in the park, was told she would be rubbish as she was a girl, retaliated 'I bet I'm better than you' and was called a little bitch. So yes, sadly, I think there are still reasons why sometimes girls need sex-segregated spaces where they can not be exposed to attitudes like that.

I don't know if anyone has heard of the 'Men's sheds' initiative, but it's a mental health intervention targeting men on the grounds they're more likely to open up in settings that are a) all male and b) organised around an activity. It's a response to the fact that men have particular needs that stem from our sexist society- as was said above, the assumption they should be Alpha males, etc. I don't see why it's an issue to recognise in most instances, segregating boys and girls and men and women is unhelpful but in a particular set of circumstances it's the right thing to do.

budgiegirl · 17/04/2018 10:00

Children who are confused about their gender are not the enemy, and I think you need to grow up

I agree. Wholeheartedly. IMO Rufus’ comment is immature, ignorant and really quite nasty.

They have pack holiday centres, where all the Brownies sleep in bunk beds in one or two big rooms. There is not the provision in these centres for different genders to sleep separately

At Beavers/cubs/scouts there is no particular requirement for sleeping arrangements to be separated by gender. They can share tents/rooms etc if required (although we do usually separate where practical, and would always advise parents if not).

So while I’m all for Brownies being single sex, sleeping arrangements are not really a good argument against boys joining.

MyDogHasNoNose · 17/04/2018 10:04

I am a leader in girl guiding and I have been a parent helper in Beavers and Cubs. The scouts where I live have a boy only pack and a mixed pack. They are totally wild! The cake making descended into a food fight, pond dipping was one of the most stressful experiences of my life!

I find the girl guiding group I take are so calm and supportive of each other. We often do similar activities to the scouting groups but they are calm, polite and supportive. I honestly think that that would be lost if we mixed up the groups.

I know that people will say that some boys are calm and quiet and would appreciate that atmosphere but unfortunately some parents treat us as cheap child care so if the time slot suited them they wouldn’t care whether the group was right or not for their child.

I think it is important that women learn to support other women from an early age. We are overcoming centuries of being seen as less than men, of being judged on appearance and not in our skills. There are plenty of groups in business and in the public sector in which women get together to help other women succeed. Why shouldn’t girls be helping other girls succeed? That’s what the safe atmosphere is. Girls supporting other girls and believing in each other.