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AIBU?

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Original poster

to think that Scouting should be one group now?

247 replies

Flatpackjackie · 16/04/2018 21:52

As girls are allowed in Beavers, Cubs and Scouts, why aren't boys allowed in Rainbows, Brownies and Guides?

Or better still, just have one group for Beavers/Rainbows ages, one for Cubs/Brownies, etc?

Seems outdated and daft to separate by sex, especially as the Scouting groups include girls anyway.

(Not a TAT, not about trans issues at all.)

OP posts:
Toomanytealights · 18/04/2018 22:33

As the article says those parents would be wrong and such parents often cause many attitudes that prove to be damaging. If such parents are wrong their behaviour shouldn't be enabled. I don't think short term girls rights trump long term girls rights or the rights of boys.

drspouse · 18/04/2018 22:33

Why should girls have to be those role models? Surely non-alpha-men would be better role models.

teenagerparent · 18/04/2018 22:39

I'm a Cub Leader and we have a mixed pack ( not too many girls at the minute, just sent 6 to Scouts ) I looked round my pack tonight, we have girls, rowdy boys, quiet boys etc we have a complete mix of children and personalities but we make it work.
We ask the Cubs what activities/badges they want to do so over the term they all get to do things they like and all get to try things they wouldn't usually do.
I would not tolerate any bullying of any child. We are all volunteers and sometimes leaders tailor their programme to their likes which they shouldn't but it happens.
My daughter originally went to Brownies and hated it, would come to Cubs as I was there but when she was old enough went to Guides. It all depends on the leaders at individual groups I think. The Guide group she went to did a lot of joint activities and camps with the Scouts as the leaders were married, but did a lot on their own too. There is a place for both organisations at the moment. Although I do believe in 10 years times either Guiding will be open to all or will not exist.

Tomorrowillbeachicken · 18/04/2018 22:45

Tbh the other issues in lots of incidences are the lack of good roles at school in primary school as there is so few primary teachers. Our school hires a man to act as positive role model as a mentor to the boys in upper years of ks2 but not all schools have that luxury.

Maryz · 18/04/2018 22:51

Yes, mixed guides would probably be great for some boys. But it would be detrimental to many girls. In fact, some girls wouldn't be able to go at all.

Obviously mixed activities work much of the time - all of my kids have gone to mixed schools, mixed activities, all have mixed friendship groups. But just as I sometimes like to have a laugh with my female friends - or a rant about my periods, my menopause, the shit way I'm treated as an older woman or how to get blood out of sheets. There are topics I simply wouldn't discuss in front of male friends, or the partners of my female friends.

I'm happy for girls to have female only spaces where they are allowed - in fact encouraged, under the guidance of experienced and mostly intelligent and enthusiastic women - to talk about matters that are relevant to only female people Hmm. Whether it be socialisation or porn or sexual harassment or abortion rights, or simply "why are the girls picked last for schoolyard teams?" or "why are boys better at maths".

All topics where girls, in general, get shouted down by boys, in general, no matter how much we try to even the playing field.

Glumglowworm · 18/04/2018 22:53

When there’s no gender pay gap, when women have equal representation in government and among leaders in business, when women aren’t discriminated against in the workplace, perhaps then there will be no need for Girl only spaces for children.

Glumglowworm · 18/04/2018 22:56

And the argument about alpha-Male types needing girls as their role models is just as ridiculous as teachers who enforce boy-girl seating plans, so the girls can be a good influence. It’s not the responsibility of the girls to be any kind of influence for the boys! And in my experience it just negatively impacts the “good” kids of either sex.

BertrandRussell · 18/04/2018 22:57

"I don't think short term girls rights trump long term girls rights or the rights of boys."

There you go again. Boys do not have the "right" to go to Guides. And their preference does not trump the rights of girls.

littlestgirlguide25 · 18/04/2018 23:03

RBBmummy
Sorry, you are absolutely and utterly wrong.
Boys have never been allowed in Guiding (apart from male unit helpers, who are not allowed to make the Promise).
In fact in 2011 GGUK went to court to defend not allowing a boy to join, and won the case.
Guiding is, and always has been, Girl-only. Until 2017 it was single sex and last year decided to become 'single-gender' - but still 'girl only'.

Mamaryllis · 19/04/2018 02:08

Tea lights, my suggestion to you is that you gather a friend or two and become a scouter. Open a mixed unit, and run youth-led activities that all of the gentle boys and any girls wanting a mixed sex environment can join. Problem solved. You cannot stomp on single sex spaces for the benefit of people that don’t want them. But if you identify a need, that is not being met in your community, please do get your training done and offer that opportunity to the children that would benefit. That’s what I and thousands of other guiders do as we recognize the need for a single sex environment for some girls.
Please. Do. Scouting and the youth you lead will benefit enormously.
Being a leader is not easy - it is a constant balance to meet the needs of a variety of youth and parents. As many of my leaders will testify - often the most demanding and high maintenance parents are those who have no intentions of volunteering their time and emotional energy. It is mostly issues with parents, not youth, that lead to volunteers leaving.
I would love to see you set up a fabulous and much needed Scout unit such as you describe. I don’t support your demands that guiding meets the needs of your sons.

Toadinthehole · 19/04/2018 03:04

The "girls need safe spaces" line relies on the view that "all boys are the same", and probably made from slugs, snails and puppy-dog's tails too.

It's no more the business of other boys to sort out bad male behaviour than it is of girls.

Any contrary view is based on some very old-fashioned notions of segregation of the sexes, one that in some countries is taken to its logical conclusion in deeply regressive ways.

BertrandRussell · 19/04/2018 07:26

"It's no more the business of other boys to sort out bad male behaviour than it is of girls."

It is actually largely the business of the adults in charge. But it most definitely not the business of girls.

Toomanytealights · 19/04/2018 07:42

Why is boys wanting to go to Guides girls sorting out behaviour in Scouts?

Toomanytealights · 19/04/2018 07:44

Mamary we both work full time with dh away and living away from home all week. Simply not possible.Running your own Scouts is not the answer to boys wanting to go to Guides.

Believeitornot · 19/04/2018 07:47

The "girls need safe spaces" line relies on the view that "all boys are the same", and probably made from slugs, snails and puppy-dog's tails too

Maybe the better approach then is to have one group which much prefers the outdoors and more activities, and another which is about growing flowers and colouring in.

Which is pretty much how the Beavers and Rainbows are where I live.

To be honest with you, boys and girls are biologically different and, in my view, there will be differences as a result. Those differences do not however mean that all boys are the same, nor all girls are the same.

Our knowledge of the brain is not complete, there’s so much we don’t know about development especially as we do not experiment on children!!

So I’m wary of any rush to push guides and scouts to merge. Scouts accept boys and girls anyway as it is.

Toomanytealights · 19/04/2018 07:48

And as for demanding and high maintenance simply because my son just wants to go with his friends to Guides.Hmm We are not the ones suggesting Scouts should be completely changed just for him.

budgiegirl · 19/04/2018 07:48

The "girls need safe spaces" line relies on the view that "all boys are the same"

No, it really doesn’t. Neither does it rely on the view that all girls need safe places.

However, it does recognise that some girls would prefer to do activities with just other girls, away from the some boys that do tend to dominate a situation.

Toomanytealights · 19/04/2018 07:52

The vast majority of children are in mixed sex schools and manage just fine. It has been shown that boys don't do so well in single sex schools,they form 50% of the population. Saying hey well we know it's not right or unfair to exclude boys,regard them all as one negative group and just ignore their needs is wrong. They're children.

Believeitornot · 19/04/2018 07:54

It has been shown that boys don't do so well in single sex schools,they form 50% of the population

Guides and scouts are not school. Furthermore, that statistic could be because mixed schools are more suited to how girls learn.

Toomanytealights · 19/04/2018 07:55

Fortunately Budgie we don't live in a country that believes in segregation and have moved on. The girls wanting to be away from some boys( who probably wouldn't want to go to Guides anyway)are more than capable of spending an hour or so a week with the others that do.

Toomanytealights · 19/04/2018 07:57

Then Belive posters need to stop holding up single sex schools as a reason why girls need segregation in Guides.

Glumglowworm · 19/04/2018 07:57

toomanytealights no you’re not suggesting scouts change, you’re suggesting girl guiding make a huge fundamental change to over 100 years of being girls only, because your son wants to be a guide. Confused

Toomanytealights · 19/04/2018 08:00

100 years is neither here nor there. Women couldn't vote for longer,doesn't make it right.Confused

It's about equality and excluding boys is wrong,plenty of boys would enjoy Guides.

Believeitornot · 19/04/2018 08:05

Then Belive posters need to stop holding up single sex schools as a reason why girls need segregation in Guides

I’m not though.

As for It's about equality and excluding boys is wrong,plenty of boys would enjoy Guides

Well boys can do the same activities as guides, just within scouts.

Why can we not celebrate the fact that actually boys and girls are different but they are not defined by what activities they do. So if a boy wants to do whatever the guides do or a girl wants to get muddy, then let them. A boy doesn’t need to go to guides to do it.

You could have more of a mix of activities in the guides and scouts with a broader appeal, as opposed to insisting that they “merge”.

Toomanytealights · 19/04/2018 08:07

Anyhow I've said my bit and that ship sailed a while ago for us. Ds got the message loud and clear a while ago that Scouts wasn't for the likes of him and he wasn't wanted at Guides. He's now found a diff kind of social group that doesn't segregate which he really enjoys and fits in,their loss. Shame other boys like him have to go through similar though and simply can't attend Guides with their friends. Going round in circles, think I'll call it a day.