About the whole 'marriage thing'?

[plummanjelly]

I've name changed for this because it's gonna be super outing.

I'm 27 and partner is 30. We've been together 7 years, since very early 20's. Quite a laid back relationship for most of the time (given our young ages, tumultuous early careers, time out for further study etc.) but in the past year has got a bit more serious (on my insistence - his philosophy is just to let things happen in their own time). I've moved into his flat (rented), attended some family weddings etc.

All this time we've got on well, we connect, understand each other, he's a huge feminist (important to me) and generally have a great laugh. He's generous, kind and supportive, his family are lovely.

EXCEPT - its been 7 years, and since we're happy and definitely know we don't want to break up or see other people, I think it's time we got married. I don't know what else there is to wait for. I'm in a good place career wise, and while there may still be some change and uncertainty (heavy travel, extended foreign postings to very challenging locations), I think this is something we can tackle together. Likewise with his career, there's a lot of uncertainty coming up but I'm happy to support him financially (if required) and otherwise and am confident that he'll come out well on the other side. Marriage will change nothing in our relationship until kids, it's just something I'd like to get out of the way sooner rather than later. We both want to have kids only after marriage, and I'd ideally want to start a family in my early 30's.

He's absolutely adamant that he will not get married right now. He feels that he's still growing as a person and doesn't want to set anything in stone just yet. He also wants to sort out his career before 'settling down'. He seems to think marriage will change something in our relationship fundamentally, that he won't be able to take risks like starting a business etc. He's also concerned that I don't want to move back to his hometown (middle of nowhere) and that I may wish to take up foreign postings and he'd be compelled to accompany me (I'm happy to move alone for periods of time). He's a believer of things happening naturally and believes that one day he will magically wake up knowing that that time is right to take the plunge. He cannot say when that time may be. 2 years ago it was in two years, now its in another 2 years etc. etc. When I bring it up, he's understanding, but can't offer any solution other than why can't we just enjoy the now instead of stressing about the future.

I'm in a state of eternal frustration because of this. I could bite the bullet walk out of an otherwise good relationship and start again, but I just can't bring myself to. I could stay and most likely remain unmarried and childless well into my 30s, also a crap option. I'm not willing to try ultimatums or emotional blackmail (suggested by friends who have successfully used these tactics) because a) it won't work and b) even if it did I really would rather not drag someone kicking and screaming down the aisle.

WWYD

I've seen this happen so many times, just recently to one of my own DN. She is now free but in her thirties, and wondering if she will ever find someone to settle down with.

I think you know what you need to do, but it will be very hard. I hope it works out for you.

You cannot put off having children.

Yes, she can, she's only 27!! It's not as if this man is her last hope. And I really don't think it's smart to have children "before" marriage, if marriage is important to you but not him. Because there will never be a marriage after that, and then she's potentially in a really vulnerable situation if she stays at home for a few years, etc.

OP, my heart absolutely goes out to you. Here is my situation, FWIW:

I’m your age. Last year I got an opportunity to move to a country in Africa with work for a year, which had always been my dream. I’ve been with DP for most of my twenties. I moved abroad, and our plan was to do long distance, and I’d return. Maybe, in both of our hearts, we had the idea that if we met/ clicked with someone when we were apart, we’d follow that and break things off. I completely understand the pain and horror at the thought of breaking up with someone you’ve been with throughout your twenties, and for us it made sense to keep things going, at least initially. DP was very upset I was going, but was supportive on the whole.

I moved abroad. We missed each other a lot. He visited and it was amazing. I met a lot of new people, colleagues, friends of friends etc - and honestly, the constant interaction with people I didn’t really click with reminded me how special he is and how lucky I am to have him.

Plot twist - after a few months of me being abroad, he had a horrific, nearly fatal, motorbike accident back home, and was in intensive care for weeks. Never has anything been so crystal clear to me in terms of what I want.

He’s getting better now, I’ve been back to visit, and am finishing off my posting here. We’ve decided to get married a year or so after I’m back, and are making plans for our future - which very much feels like a shared future now.

Sometimes, I think distance can help bring clarity to your situation. I say: follow your job, go abroad, and see how it is living without him. Stay in touch, stay together if you like for your time abroad - but monitor how you’re feeling whilst apart from him. I think you’ll find your answer given the space away. If you meet someone else, then great, and you’ll need to let him down gently. Put yourself first here, and see what happens. I feel like taking the opportunity to leave and experience something else confirmed what I wanted in the long term. Sounds boring, but the thinking and distance helped, and I feel a lot more at peace with what I’ve decided.

Good luck with whichever path you choose. You sound brilliant - enjoy that career and the adventures you have ahead of you.

Robotic, you’re right. I should have said she cannot put off having children indefinitely. 27 is one thing, but that’s only 3 years away from 30. Then perhaps a year or two TTC before it turns out IVF is the only way, and that lengthy process begins. Of course none of that may ever happen but speaking from experience it does sometimes. Throw trying to find a new partner into the mix, taking the necessary years to get to know them to make sure they are going to be a good parent, and before you know it she’s 40 and desperately hoping there’s still a chance.

OP said she loves and respects this man, and marriage proposal aside, she believes he feels the same about her. I think that’s too much to throw away on a maybe. Look around this forum. There are so many awful men and miserable women. If OP has a good man and she can work this out she should really try.

Men would have to be idiots to marry a woman these days.

Much as it pains me to say.

We (well solicitors and messy divorce settlements) have well and truly effed up that particular institution.

He's clearly trying to avoid it all.

Bitches eh, Just?

Who?

The solicitors? It's just business for them isn't it.

And I'm not being flippant or making some sort of sexist, us v them remark. I just think that things have gone too far these days.

Your mistake was moving in with him. It's an old fashioned view, but after several relationships and in my late 20s I set boundaries for myself as I knew what I wanted (marriage to someone I loved) and didn't want (to be strung along by not-quite-right men). I made it clear after being with my now DH that I was a marriage kind of girl and that I wasn't prepared to move in with him at any point unless we were at least engaged. I also made it clear that I wanted kids and that marriage was an essential pre-requisite for me before having children.

I think you could move out for a bit, stay in the relationship and say you're not prepared to live with him any longer unless you're married. That's not a break up, it's just a statement about what you're prepared to accept.

I also agree, prioritise your career and your travel. It'll harness his resolve (or show him he doesn't care THAT much to try). It was only after going overseas for my career (and my now-DH having to decide whether to pursue a LTR, travel to be with me or break-up) that my DH really made an effort to commit properly to me.

Remember sunk cost fallacy. By all means stay with him if he is the man of your dreams, but not because you feel that you are too far along the journey to jump off. The next chap could be perfect and ready to settle down quickly.

In my opinion he is not ready to marry you now and he doesn' t know when he will be ready. Two years ago, he thought it would be now, but now he doesn't.

If you don't mind this uncertainty then carry on. But if you would marriage and a family and you feel someone should know after 7 years whether they are with the right person, then make your own choices.

Justmyownself Whats gone too far?

My DH was with his previous girlfriend for 9 years. They got engaged after 5 years and moved together to two different cities. She was desperate to get married and have kids. He was reluctant. She even roped his mum and sister into her cause. Eventually she had a affair at work, left my DH and within a year was married and pregnant to the guy she'd had an affair with (still together 17 years later).

Three years later I met my DH on holiday and he was the one pushing for marriage. I asked him, why did you get engaged to your ex and he said 'I thought she needed that to see I was serious'. I asked him why he didn't marry her and he said 'I didn't see myself with her for the rest of my life, but I didn't want to break up with her'

I agree with the others, concentrate in your career. Take the trip abroad. He may not have one eye on the door but he is thinking about it.

Good luck.

I'm another one who knows women who this happened to. One waited for seven years and had the whole 'I'm not ready yet' saga. It was a lot of mind games and totally horrible as he'd play the doting gent to her friends but we saw straight through it. She couldnt leave him tho. Then out of the blue he cheated and broke up with her. Then quickly got married to another woman.

I also know a women who finally got her marriage but they divorced a month later as he changed his mind.

Both womem are now married and have a kid or kids.

I think taking out marriage- for him to see you cry and say he'd be ok breaking up if he had to is shouting you're different ppl now. It's so heartbreaking when you give so much to someone in any kind of breakup. It's a greiving process if you're truly in love. You want to believe them and only see the best in them but sometimes you have to hear what they are saying. My advice would be to really hear when you next talk. Closure can come if you see, instead of all the unforseen paths he's making up, and the mystery, it's his simple decision of you wanting different things and him not supporting you.

I don’t think people (including women) get married thinking “oh how wonderful - when we get divorced, I’ll get x, y and z”. The point is not to get divorced isn’t it? Obviously it happens a lot, but it is never (ok rarely) the intention of either side. So, I don’t think it makes sense to say “men would be mad to marry these days”. The reason women talk a lot about the protection marriage offers is because there is still a huge imbalance between the sexes in terms of who shoulders the majority of the responsibility for childcare and whose career is prioritised. Let’s face it, it’s almost always women who have the former and the men’s career is the latter.

Using myself as an example; if my dh had been happy to live somewhere cheap, near family who might have helped with free childcare, where we could both work in ok, or maybe part time jobs, cover bills and share childcare, then I’d personally have loved that and felt absolutely no ‘need’ to get married. I’d happily not bother with the legal part and have had a church blessing (we’re churchy) instead. But, seeing as he wanted a stellar career, which meant doing a lot of moving around while he trained and now living near London so he can work for the company he wants to work for, we both wanted children and neither of us wanted them to be in nursery full time, then it made sense for my career to take a back seat. Anyway, we’d moved around so much immediately after graduation that my ‘career’ involved taking what I could get in a given location. If he decided to leave me some day, of course I want the legal protection marriage offers. Equally, I’m risking some personal wealth which I own due to inheritance if we split. I don’t think it’s a bad thing that splitting up would be a financial blow for both of us. Fwiw, neither of us wants to split anyway... afaik!

Think someone has been reading the Daily Mail "Its All Gone Too Far" "BLoody Women Fleece Innocent Men On Divorce"

Generally overall men benefit from marriage far more than women. Yes if they separate they still have to support their kids - shocker isn't it.

I actually agree with Just

I cannot see the positives for a male to do this now.

Yes if they separate they still have to support their kids - shocker isn't it.

I know! Bloody women. Can’t they just pay for their own children as well as doing the lion’s share of caring for them? Men shouldn’t have to worry about this stuff.

I cannot see the positives for a male to do this now

I don’t disagree with this. The protection marriage offers is usually for the benefit of the woman. But in many cases I think that protection is absolutely necessary. Some men accept that they risk to lose financially in order to offer their wives (and children) a certain level of protection. Some won’t want to do this and therefore won’t get married. On the flip side, some women will accept a certain level of risk by not marrying before having children and some won’t. Where there is no choice to be made over whose career to follow, (ie, both halves of the couple can devote equal amounts to their respective careers without detrimentally effecting the other’s career), then the choice to stay together, not marry and just have children is probably quite an easy one. There’s less risk. In situations like my own, I’d have been completely mad not to get married, before I committed to leaving friends and family, trailing round after my dh and being the one who has to focus on the dcs, while he works on his career. If my dh hadn’t agreed with me and wanted to offer dcs and me that level of protection, then we just wouldn’t be together and I definitely wouldn’t have had any babies with him.

Er, so that he can celebrate being with the woman he loves, soap? You know, there are still men who have romantic feelings, love the women they’re with and want to marry them.

Lemonsx4 speaks sense.

Dh and I married two and a half years into our relationship, at 23 and 25, as impoverished students (and had the tiny shoestring wedding in high street dress to match) with pretty much all our career planning etc still ahead of us. We're now 17 years of marriage, a ton of house and job moves and 3 dc down the line. It was right for us then and it's right now. It seems to me that if after 7 years he is dithering about making this commitment and professes to want to get his career sorted first then his heart isn't in it. A wedding can be a couple of hundred quid and a register office. They don't ask you when you go in whether you have sorted careers.

The thing about time and having children is that you never know. I was getting pregnant easily well into the second half of my 30s, but by the time I was 30, as well as having dc1 and dc2 being on the way, I had also had three miscarriages. I had another three, plus a year of trying with nothing, in my mid- to late 30s trying for dc3, who I did eventually get on a last-ditch attempt. I certainly wouldn't be sounding the alarm bells at 27, but everyone needs to be mindful of the fact that there are no guarantees.

Don’t waste your most attractive, best years waiting on him. He’s had plenty of time to make up his mind. This has all the hallmarks of the classic scenario that previous posters have described: man and woman in LTR for years, man always stringing the woman along saying he’s just not ready for marriage and kids yet but he loves her, woman finally gives up usually in her 30s after 7+ years and hey presto, man meets and marries another woman within a year or two. He was always ready to get married, just not to her. Don’t be that woman.

I don't want a wedding, don't want a ring, don't want a fancy surprise proposal, don't want a macho manly man

Many years ago one of my friends, who was getting married, told me that one day I would meet someone who appreciated me for me. This is what will happen to you and when you do that man will want to give you a fancy surprise proposal, will want to see you in a beautiful dress and buy you a gorgeous ring to show you how much he loves you. You deserve all of this. You don't deserve to be treated with indifference.

@SoapOnARoap what do you think males have to fear from marriage?

Agree with ferntwist and BanyanTree.

Have you seen When Harry met Sally, OP?

things have gone too far these days - what things? Where have they gone? You mean it's outrageous that the partner who stayed home raising kids does not actually want to move out with only their shirt on their back and live under a tree? Bitch.

Two things:

1. To people who are saying she needs to set a time limit or boundaries - I had a friend who did this (I want a proposal by XY date or I am leaving.) He proposed. They planned a wedding, He called it off a few months before, mortifying and heartbreaking her. You can't MAKE someone do what they don't want to.

2. Are people serious about engagement before moving in!? No man or woman in their right mind would agree to that, surely? You have to live together to know if you enjoy living together in the day to day reality before deciding to be with someone forever. I think this is a deeply unreasonable idea.