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Original poster

pt.2 To find floral tributes being left for Harry Vincent offensive

999 replies

lostjanni · 11/04/2018 20:35

We reached the post limit so if anyone wants to carry on the discussion...

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5
derxa · 13/04/2018 07:31

No sympathy for grieving abused children Hmm

Aeroflotgirl · 13/04/2018 07:34

What I found really disgusting, was tgere was a thread when Mr Osbourne was arrested after the incident. Somebody on a thread, wished it to go to trial. Right, so it is not enough tgat this elderly man has had his home, his safe space invaded, and had to kill a criminal to protect himself and his wife, this poster wished him the added stress, of him appearing in court, and being cross examined in a highly stressful situation, and would be pleased that he might go to jail for dare killing somebody, even though that man was a criminal breaking into his home and threatening him and his wife. Thank god charges were dropped and he was released, but has to be protected, because of the vile and nasty family and friends of the criminal he killed.

BertrandRussell · 13/04/2018 07:41

Yep. That was me. I wanted it to go to trial. Unlike others who wanted the police to say “He was a burglar. Fair enough, off you go, no more questions.”

Because I don’t think you can hand out summary justice- it was obviously legitimately self defense in this case but it mightn’t have been, and it won’t always be. And we can only know by properly investigating. Tony Martin was a case in point. There was outrage about him being brought to trial until the facts of the case came out.

Aeroflotgirl · 13/04/2018 07:58

Good thing, they found it was and the poor man was spared having to go through that ordeal.

Aeroflotgirl · 13/04/2018 08:00

If a strange person in breaks into your home without you inviting them, at night when you are asleep, they are an burglar, are they not!

Aeroflotgirl · 13/04/2018 08:00

I don't dispute the Police had to investigate properly, they have to do their job, he was discharged just as I hoped, without it going further.

derxa · 13/04/2018 08:03

I wanted it to go to trial Thank God you're not in charge of deciding.

onefootinthegrave · 13/04/2018 08:05

Stillvicar

Have just read some of your posts from last night. It's like the hokey cokey with you, on this thread and with your job. In out, in out - I hope if you're back in this morning you don't sound as drunk as you did last night. Honestly, MN don't need you to keep repeating breaches of the police's social media policy, or how you'd be happy to leave the police and you've reported yourself. You don't need to keep telling us.

Grrrrrrr I don't think you sound deranged, you work with some very vulnerable people too. But it's so hard to have sympathy with this particular family. I believe one of VH's kids is an adult female who has been backing his actions in that house that night, so I don't feel sorry for her in the same was as I would if she was 3 years old and missing the VH she knew as her dad.

Yes VH may well have once been a vulnerable child. But RO and his wife were vulnerable due to their age and disabilities, and he took advantage of them.

When my dad was 74 ( a few years ago) he badly needed a hip replacement and would shuffle down the road looking like he couldn't fight his way out of a paperbag. He went to a cashpoint to draw some money out and an adult woman grabbed the card out of his hand, ready to throw to her male accomplice. She wasn't reckoning on his response, which was to shout as loudly as he could 'YOU FUCKING THEIF' and grab hold of her arm and not let go. She managed to get away by wriggling out of her coat and leaving it there, and he couldn't run after them. He was furious.

When he got home my mum said he'd better call the police because they could be targeting other vulnerable looking elderly people there, so he did,

After he'd given his statement, the police called him back and said 'Sorry we forgot to ask you if you want us to put you in touch with victim support?' To which he replied 'No but if you find her you might want to put her in touch with them because she fucking shit herself'

People that prey on the elderly and vulnerable are despicable. Those 2 at the cashpoint wouldn't have thought for one minute of targeting my dad if he looked as though he was in good health, and that's what VH's family have done all their lives. I don't know what the answer is long term. 10 years ago I thought I knew, but it's true - the older I get, the more I realise I know nothing.

But in the case, all I can think of is RO and his wife, and the impact this has had on them, not the impact this case has had on VH and his family.

BertrandRussell · 13/04/2018 08:06

"f a strange person in breaks into your home without you inviting them, at night when you are asleep, they are an burglar, are they not!"

Yes of course. I think you misunderstood me. There is no question that Vincent was a burglar. The question is whether being a burglar means you have forgone your human rights and it is therefore OK to kill you. I think not. You think so. A fundamental and irreconcilably different world view.

IIIustriouslyIllogical · 13/04/2018 08:08

Yep. That was me. I wanted it to go to trial.

Luckily then that the law follows due procedure & only sends things to trial that are actually crimes.

Luckily offending Bertrand's misplaced sensibilities isn't enough to ensure a trial.

Luckily the victim was found to have acted in a reasonable manner & there is no need for a trial.

IIIustriouslyIllogical · 13/04/2018 08:10

The question is whether being a burglar means you have forgone your human rights and it is therefore OK to kill you

No, the question is whether it's OK to defend yourself with reasonable force and whether the law will support you in extenuating circumstances.

I honestly get the impression that some of you lot would be happier if it had been the standard "pensioners beaten up & robbed" scenario.God forbid someone actually stands up for themselves.

LassWiADelicateAir · 13/04/2018 08:16

I'm afraid that I struggle to find sympathy for the adult relatives of the career criminal who died in the course of a crime. After all, if he really did turn to crime due to problems in his upbringing, the fault was theirs. If not, they still know what he was doing, and are deliberately intimidating the elderly vulnerable couple whose home and safety the criminal deliberately and with malice invaded. And they are further intimidating by their own behaviour. If they just wanted a memorial, they could do so with minimal interference by siting it at the criminal's home, rather than at the site of his victims' home

This and the rest of nocoolnamesleft's post seems to me a perfectly reasonable and rational view.

DeloresJaneUmbridge · 13/04/2018 08:20

He who lives by the sword etc....

The burglar in this case paid the ultimate price for his actions.

He was holding an elderly man hostage with a screwdriver. He didn't expect the elderly man to fight back. In the ensuing fight back he was accidentally stabbed and he died.

If I was feeling uncharitable and mean I would say he gave nothing to the world and it's a better place without him.

In reality I think he was still a human being and the fact he died is sad....if nothing else I would have liked him held to account for burglary and locked up for a long time.

As for the floral tributes I think the police are in a difficult position. The travelling community generally go in for massive shows of affection when a major event like this occurs. That's my experience of working with travellers over many years. I tend to find that once they have expressed their grief though it all simmers down. I would imagine he police are also aware of this and just want the family to be able to express their grief and then move on.

What I also know though is that the family night want to leave a permanent shrine there. That would not be appropriate and will need careful handling to find a permanent solution acceptable to the travelling community and the local people.

stitchglitched · 13/04/2018 08:27

From what I've seen on fb at least a couple of his kids are young adults and have said some extremely unpleasant things about Mr OB and defending their father's crimes. I feel sad for all the kids who were born into this crime family but not sure what society can do about that in terms of intervention with a community who won't co-operate with outsiders and where you are walking the delicate line of dealing with a protected minority.

Aeroflotgirl · 13/04/2018 08:28

I think so Bertrand, the burglar breaks into a house, they do so at their own risk. They might be injured or killed if people have to defend themselves and their families. They break and enter at their own risk.

Aeroflotgirl · 13/04/2018 08:29

I would rather the criminal die, than the victim and his wife, who were doing no wrong, asleep at night resting.

BertrandRussell · 13/04/2018 08:30

"No, the question is whether it's OK to defend yourself with reasonable force and whether the law will support you in extenuating circumstances."

I agree. The problem is that many people on here have both said and implied that any force is reasonable, and that once it was established that the person who died was a burglar the matter should have not been taken any further.

Aeroflotgirl · 13/04/2018 08:31

Oh right, if they are adult kids that he has, and are behaving in a vile an nasty manner, than I am not sorry at all for them, they will be just like their father.

Personwithhorse · 13/04/2018 08:34

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stitchglitched · 13/04/2018 08:35

They appear to be young adults although they maybe older teens. Yes they have very vocally defended their Dad which I guess is to be expected given the attitudes of this family but it doesn't really invoke much sympathy.

Aeroflotgirl · 13/04/2018 08:35

Yes it is fine to kill if they are harming or threatening you, or course it is. Mr OB did the right thing, he did what he needed to do to stop himself and his wife being injured and possibly killed.

Aeroflotgirl · 13/04/2018 08:36

Then I just don't feel sorry for his kids, I don't, if they were little ones, yes but not teens/young adults.

ShatnersWig · 13/04/2018 08:38

I feel sorry for those kids being born into a family like that because the only role models they will have had will have been shockingly bad ones and the likelihood of them following any other path is negligible.

Aeroflotgirl · 13/04/2018 08:40

I agree Shatners, they will follow the same path, it is a cycle.

NowToWork · 13/04/2018 09:04

Noticed this was rumbling on through watching QT last night.

Anyone want to start a law abiding gang? Maybe we can share advice on reducing taxes we pay and pool any savings resources and hire some protection. 😋