To not want to be saddled with SIL debts

[Tinkobell]

My SIL is 46. She is DH only sibling. SIL Is single, possibly gay, has high functioning ASD, private school and university educated, no assets, a history of failed careers and had returned home in middle age giving her parents a list of unpaid debts and bailiff letters to sort out. SIL is back in her old bedroom and trying to get any kind of locally paid work. DH and I feel she's a ticking time bomb. In laws are getting older, running out of money and energy to deal with her. Does anyone have any advice on dealing with family members like this? We've suggested citizens advice etc. We've our own kids and life worries to get through.

Her parents need to stop bailing her out, she needs to learn to sort out her own problems. She needs to seek advice, get a job and start to pay off her debts. She racked them up she needs to pay for them.

POAs are for people who are unable to manage their financial affairs, you can't make anyone sign up for one, neither can you register it with financial institutions unless the account holder lacks capacity. The PiLs don't appear to fit that criterion.

While it would seem sensible for the SiL to go bankrupt I imagine the PiLs would regard this as completely shameful and wouldn't allow it to happen on principle. At the end of the day, it's their money and they decide what they do with it.

Nobody but them knows the extent of their savings and how much impact their decision to bail her out will make. Presumably they have a house so if they need care, there will be money to pay for it.

Is your husband worried about his inheritance, OP?

If not for a few details this could be my parents and my sister. Back home in her 40s, parents increasingly unable to deal with the emotional rollercoaster. All other siblings living abroad so only minimally able to help. Sister highly manipulative whilst still being vulnerable in many ways. Has a history of munchausens and erratic behaviour, highly intelligent and extremely manipulative. Yet vulnerable.

The main short term worry you have is the PILs impoverishing themselves to pay debts they have NO need to. Your DH needs to make them totally aware that they are NOT responsible for her debts and NOT helping by paying them off. SIL needs proper appropriate care short term, including taking as much financial responsibility as she is able to while being supported logistically but not Financially by family. One of the debt management agencies needs to be contacted. PILs need to make it. Dry clear they will pay no more and provide only emotional/housing etc support (or whatever they are comfortable with.) YOU and DH need to support PILs as much as you can emotionally,

Those having a pop at OP may not have experienced how difficult it is to see a sibling you love and you know and understand is vulnerable in many ways wreak emotional havoc on a family. It’s perfectly possible to love the sibling while hating their actions and the heartache they cause. My parents have only just stopped caring for one ageing relative and now are caring again for someone who is younger. They do it out of love but it has a huge impact on them.

POA is a good thing to look at. It would need to be voluntary from her side so not sure how far you will get.

Tough situation OP.

@Dangerousmonkey. Just read your very nasty line. Not so. We've all had lost sleep over SIL. Worried she might take her life.....all sorts. Lots of people have family near and far with debt, it's a sad fact.

You can get POA for a mentally competent person if it’s done voluntarily and if they are vulnerable - it has to be entered into voluntarily though and it’s complicated.

@bluelady, you are wrong.

You can sign a POA at any time. Indeed things like limited POAs for things like property are common, across all age groups. The Attorney is not allowed to use it to override someone's wishes if that someone still has capacity. However I was suggesting they delegated the management of their assets to their son with their permission. When you ask for Attorney access to a bank account, or set up an account as an Attorney, the bank simply asks to see the POA document, not proof of capacity.

See this annoys me. She’s not asd necessarily- so why label her?

Just because she’s got traits (who hasn’t) doesn’t mean that’s the reason she is who and how she is. Until she has a diagnosis, how on earth can anyone put it down to asd? And I speak as a mum who’s child is undergoing investigation as to his needs- he is possibly asd- certainly has traits- possibly something else. I treat him no different except to manage his anxiety the best I can because until I have the diagnosis and support to hand, how can I possibly label or treat him differently?

OK, having administered two POAs, I don't know what I'm talking about. I know you can sign at any age but you can't enforce them when you feel like it when the subject still has capacity. If you were the PiLs would you hand your finances over to your son when you still had capacity? I wouldn't.

@Thinkofthemice "it’s complicated". Not so. Most people of retirment age should be encouraged to set up POAs. They need to be done whilst there is capacity. The bigger problem is leaving it too late.

All the dad would be doing is asking his son to manage his assets. Probably safer than handing the money over to a Financial Advisor. By using the POA they remain in his name, and the Attorney is bound by law to act in his interests. People become financially vulnerable for all sorts of reasons. In this case it might be simply misplaced loyalty to their daughter and an inability to say "no".

I have been into dozens of banks (dont ask me why DM had dozens of bank accounts) setting myself up as POA. No need to prove capacity. Or if POA is a step to far, get the dad to sign third party access forms for his accounts, so your son can monitor/manage.

@bluelady you can if it is voluntary. Reread my post. Making blanket and incorrect statements does not help. You might not hand over control, but these are DP who may be being bled dry.

(I once allowed a limited POA when I was working abroad. It does happen for a variety of reasons.)

Hi - we do have several family members who are ASD with huge variation and dependency levels. SIL is most certainly high functioning Asperger. I think the PIL for years just put it down as quirky and probably feared a diagnosis. Here's just a few characteristics - intense conversation, not recognising non verbal cues, not recognising personal space, lack of natural empathy, struggles to have friends. I think it's really hard for her. There is a fear at 46 that a diagnosis might prove a set back rather than a help. If anyone watched the Chris Packham program a while back about ASD as we did, it chimed everything.

I can't see what good a voluntary POA would do. If they are clearheaded enough about the situation to agree to that, then they're clearheaded enough to just agree to a sensible limit on how much money they give to the sister in the first place. And to be honest giving all power over your own money to the 'good' child would sit pretty uncomfortably with most people - it makes how you see your two children relatively better obvious!

I think helping her access services and DH having a chat with his parents about not compromising their own financial stability is all that can be done. It's pretty hard to talk people into letting their children get in serious trouble when they could help them out of it. Harder still if it's one child arguing essentially against helping the other - how is that supposed to make the parents feel other than torn, upset and like they can't do anything to avoid upsetting one of their children?

Not judgemental they are the facts of her life.

Yes but what have the facts of her life got to do with anything.

Yes fair enough the career bit. However reading between the lines. It seems to me she never got that lucky break rather than she never even tried.

Would it be any better if she was a 2.4 house wife married to a banker as appose to being a single women living back at home with her parents and I don't know why what gender she sleeps with has to do with anything.

bluelady gosh we found it very complicated when setting one up for our ageing relative - compos mentis but very vulnerable and prone to scams etc. It took a while to do for us (worth it though - she’d been taken advantage of at the door once or twice.) :(

Im also assuming the POA is for the PILs to control SILs spending. Some posts seem to be assuming the subject will be the PILs

@zzzzzz, no not always present before school age. For many people, it is not unti relationships become more sophisticated with maturity that ASD is recognised- understanding nuance, sarcasm that level of communication.

There's no need for a POA for SiL, her credit cards have been cut up and she has no money, hence nothing to administer. The only logical conclusion in the midst of all this talk of POAs is that they would be for PiLs.

Margaret has summed all this up perfectly in my eyes.

Hard to tell if the struggle to manage personal finances is ASD causal or not...might not be at all. Only a clinician could tell that.

Thanks @MargaretCavendish

Seems to me you're only worried about the possibility your in laws will 'fritter' away their money, meaning you won't cop so much in their wills.

The POA was first raised as a possibility for the parents, not the sister. I agree that it makes more sense as a suggestion for the sister, but since it would involve her agreeing she isn't really capable of running her own life it sounds like it would be a very uphill struggle. It also relies on someone taking over who is acting completely in her best interest, not also to avoid 'wasting' the parents' money, which it doesn't necessarily sound like OP's DH could do - completely understandably, his loyalties are very split.

Bloody Nora, there's some nasty fuckers on this thread! As my Dad always used to say, 'don't judge everyone by your own standards'

The reality of the situation is that your SIL sounds as though she is likely to continue to struggle to manage her finances for life. Essentially, you have two choices. You either resign yourselves to bailing her out financially the way your PIL's have done and start planning for that or you agree that you're not going to go down this road.
If you choose the latter (which is perfectly reasonable) then you need to accept that it might be difficult emotionally, particularly for your DH. If you decide you aren't going to get involved in her finances then you may want to think about discussing it with your PIL's (and possibly your SIL) in advance so that they can look at ways to gradually increase SIL's independence (e.g helping her find work) before anything happens to them.