AIBU about Hadley Freeman?

[NoSquirrels]

She’s a bit of a crush of mine.

I’ve always loved her writing. But this week she wrote this about 80s movies which is so good.

www.theguardian.com/film/2018/mar/27/1980s-favourite-film-decade-top-gun-stand-by-me-hadley-freeman

She’s been all over the anti-Semitism protests and other issues.
And now she has articulated what I’ve been trying politely to say for ages about the Self ID issue.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/mar/31/man-explains-what-means-be-woman?CMP=ShareiOSAppOther

Please have a read! Then if she’s convinced you sign the petition.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

If she hasn’t feel free just to ignore or talk about 80s movies here, or general women-journalists-who-rock, or your own inappropriate crushes.

Still ignoring my questions @Stillscreaming

In all fairness, I'm not personally reponsible for the 8th amendment. I've been doing my bit to get rid of it. 😀

I'm glad we agree on something.

f anyone is being funded by the Christian Right, it's not women's groups. We all know this. You know this. Your faux-concerned "oh my goodness, I am noticing a pattern" fools nobody.

The Christain right did fund and join forces with Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon over anti pornography laws. MacKinnon wrote about it in her book, Towards A Feminist Theory of The State.

Cathy Brennon has also worked with the Christian right, in attempting to change the laws over medical provisions for trans kids but I don't know if any money changed hands in that case.

Personally, I don't think Debbie Hayton just made this up.

That's dismissal, stillscreaming. I asked you a specific question - the child wasn't upset by an injection, the child was upset when being listed the consequences of the drug they were about to be injected with.

No, we have no idea why the child was crying, just at what point the child cried. This isn't a first hand account, no one knows what's happening in that child's head.

Hypothetically - do you agree that child should have been taken outside and 'calmed down' and pressured to have that injection? .

You're extrapolating, we know that the child was 'calmed down' but no pressure is mentioned.

But hypothetically - assume it's real - what would be your feelings? Do you think this should happen to children who are below the age of consent?

I've got no bloody idea. I'm not going to make medical decisions for a child I've never met, who's history I don't know, on the basis of a secondhand account of an injection. For all I know,mthe child could have a needle phobia. There just isn't enough information for anyone to make a reasonable assessment of that situation.

And if anything, the American far right are anti-feminist, anti- abortion and homophobic. Really homophobic - so much so, they would rather trans the gay away. If you can 'change sex' and then be straight - well far better.

The same scenario plays out in countries with known homophobic laws - such as Iran. You know, the country that throws gay men off buildings, or offers them a transition to a woman. The country that had a women's football team with 8 born males on it.

Personally, I don't think Debbie Hayton just made this up.

I'm not saying that she made it up. I'm saying that there isn't enough information to make an assessment. In fact, I'll go further, I don't think that non doctors should be second guessing actual doctors and their treatment of their patients.

There's a difference between "worked on some of the same issues, albeit with totally different motivations" and "funded", Stillscreaming.

If I went on twitter and posted a lot of tweets listing all the transwomen who have been convicted of rape, murder, sexual assault and child rape, I would get a tide of "not all transwomen!!!"

If I went on twitter and posted all the screenshots of "die, TERF scum", "transbians" holding baseball bats to threaten women, TRAs holding knives to threaten women, TRAs wearing "I punch TERFs" t-shirts, I'd get a tide of "not all transwomen!!!"

So why is it OK for you to try (try badly, but still try) to extrapolate a couple of instances of a couple of women, a long time ago, working on the same issue as the Christian Right, albeit coming from a different direction, and with different motives (and you've posted no proof of funding) to try and paint all "rad fems" as in bed with the Christian Right?

It's disingenuous, deceptive nonsense.

(And you still haven't acknowledged that your spurious "point" about the transgender trend website is sexist, disingenuous nonsense, too.)

You do know about the concerns many transsexuals have over the proposed changes to the GRA, including self ID, given the effort it takes to 'prove' the dysphoria we have?

Well indeed. This seems to be totally ignored though, always.

As for the OP, I have liked Hadley for a while, but managing to get the latest article published must have taken a lot of work. And of course she is right, lefty dudebros need to back the fuck off, they just love having a 'right on' excuse for their misogyny. Yes, looking at you little OJ, you of saying lesbians should suck ladydick but finding someone asking if you would lick manfanny homophobic.

And if anything, the American far right are anti-feminist, anti- abortion and homophobic. Really homophobic - so much so, they would rather trans the gay away. If you can 'change sex' and then be straight - well far better.

The idea that it's easier to be trans than gay isn't true. It might be easier to be a young, attractive, trans person, who passes but anyone who's transgender status is obvious gets a harder time that your average gay.

And if anything, the American far right are anti-feminist, anti- abortion and homophobic. Really homophobic - so much so, they would rather trans the gay away. If you can 'change sex' and then be straight - well far better.

Also, yes quite.

So why is it OK for you to try (try badly, but still try) to extrapolate a couple of instances of a couple of women, a long time ago, working on the same issue as the Christian Right, albeit coming from a different direction, and with different motives (and you've posted no proof of funding) to try and paint all "rad fems" as in bed with the Christian Right?

Because two very famous rad fems did get funding from the Christain right and one of them wrote about it in her book. There is an established link. There is a lot of ideological cross over between the two groups,mthe are natural bedfellows.

The idea that it's easier to be trans than gay isn't true.

And yet an awful lot of gay women will disagree with you entirely on this.

Who is being backed by the government and all the major political parties? Transwomen are. Lesbians aren't.

Who is being backed by any number of well-funded, powerful charities? Transwomen are. Lesbians aren't.

Which is the high-status position to come out as, on social media, in the workplace, in school, and in university, and which is the lowest-status position? Trans is the high status position. Lesbian is the lowest-status position.

Because two very famous rad fems did get funding from the Christain right and one of them wrote about it in her book. There is an established link. There is a lot of ideological cross over between the two groups,mthe are natural bedfellows.

This makes no sense at all, Stillscreaming, when I and a lot of other women have pointed out to you the exact opposite is true. Maybe you just don't listen to women, and we should ask a man on here to point it out. Would you listen then?

Just discovered her lately and I love her.
She's refreshing and relatable

The idea that it's easier to be trans than gay isn't true. It might be easier to be a young, attractive, trans person, who passes but anyone who's transgender status is obvious gets a harder time that your average gay.

Well, now I know you're talking nonsense. That's why they go for gender non-conforming children. In schools. You see? That's why I showed you the blog excerpt from the transitioning gender-queer child. The trans movement is hugely homophobic, coming from the US far right. The very place you've accused Jennifer Bilak of being from (she's not).

As I said, the same is true of Iran. Gay is not allowed. You trans it away. Change sex, you're not gay anymore! And we can make a shed load of money out of the drugs you need for all your life!

It's only part of the trans movement - but it is a major part that concerns children and young people.

*Last petition link, just because:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118*

As you've been kind enough to post the link again, I'm going to set out my reasons for not singling again:

My reasons are legion.

1. It doesn't say who will do this 'representing'. The views of those who claim to want debate, range from those who are mildly gender critical to those who are rabidly anti trans. The rabidly anti trans are most shouty, I suspect they'll be doing the representing and that makes me flinch.

1. Over 204 groups have already been consulted on changes to the gender recognition act, including Rape Crisis, Women's Aid, the Prison Service, Radical Feminist groups and Shelia Jefferris. That's a lot of consulting.

1. I don't agree with the premiss, that the comfort of majority groups outweighs the right of inclusion of minorities. I grew up in the 1970s when it was accepted that the straight, white, English people 'owned' society and that the benefits of living in this society were their's to bestow on the rest of us. I didn't like that.

1. I think that there is a tiny but vocal minority on MN who would like to see trans people stripped of all rights, even those who have been living in the acquired gender for years, doing no harm to anyone. I think that these people have deliberately spread fear amount the more moderate members, have misrepresented what the law is at the moment and misrepresented how it might be in the future. I think that they are as happy to use the threat of male violence to make women conform to their views, as any male offender is. I'm a feminist, that pisses me off.

1. I'm all for debate and I don't like the way in which women who don't agree with what this petition asks for, are met with outright hostility by some; 'handmaidens', 'pathetic', 'virtue signalling', are not reasonable ways to address other with who don't agree with you.

1. I don't like the insinuation that I, in some way, 'don't understand' becasue I'm not gripped by a moral panic.

1. I don't like the way that those who would like me to sign this petition play fast and loose with the facts. When I point out that Ireland and Canada have self ID and it's fine, they make up things about the British prison system not allocating places in prison on a case by case basis, which simply isn't true and has buggery flip to do with public loos or changing rooms.

'Night all. 😀

I think that there is a tiny but vocal minority on MN who would like to see trans people stripped of all rights

Citation needed for all those 7 points as well, because they're not objective or true if they use words like 'moral panic' and 'I grew up 1970s Britain' - so did I - that was exactly when I grew up - and I don't share stillscreaming's views.

When I point out that Ireland and Canada have self ID and it's fine

You have to be joking! Have you actually done your own research on the impact? Or do you just ignore anything which doesn't fit your narrative?

Canada - where Morgan Oger (transwoman) tried to have a woman arrested because she held a placard saying "transwomen are men". I think he only didn't because he couldn't find her - but by god, he tried.

Is that really where we want to be?

Well indeed, Terftastic.

There's a lot of speculation by Stillscreaming but very little evidence. I'd bet it's born of confidence that if you state sexist nonsense in a calm, authoritative tone, and shove in a load of slanderous accusations about women, and a bunch of ridiculous, evidence-free strawmen, you'll get away with it. I wonder where that confidence comes from?

Who is being backed by the government and all the major political parties? Transwomen are. Lesbians aren't.

I'm getting on a bit now but when I first came out there was an unequal age of consent, I could stil have been legally sacked for being a lesbian I couldn't marry. My relationships weren't legally recognised in any way. I had a spell in hospital and my girlfriend had to pretend to be my mum to get access to my hospital bed. Section 28 was about to come into force.

In the run up to section 28, the media were savage about gay people. They accused us of being perverts, trying to recruit children, having a 'gay lobby', of wanting to abuse children and having 'pretend families', so that we could abuse children, lesbians were presented as being 'unnatural' and I know a few women who lost their kids. We were also, of course, accused of spreading AIDS, while we watched our friends die of it, in a really unpleasant way.

It's loads better for gay people now. However, if you take away the dying of AIDS aspect, I see a lot of those accusations levelled at trans people. The underlying inference is always that trans people aren't safe to be around, that they have nefarious reasons for wanting to use the loo that matches their gender, that they are out to get someone.

I'm indifferent to self ID and I don't mind who pisses where but the narrative being framed around a minority group being dangers, is one that's familiar to me. I remember it being aimed at me and my community and I remember the isolation it caused. I do care about this 'trans lobby' nonsense, I remember it being claime that my fellow gays and I were part of a similar, powerful, lobby, who were trying to take something from the larger community, it was a lie then and it's a lie now.

Morgan Oger - claims to be biologically female on twitter.

I'd like to just ram the point home - Morgan Oger, who is currently very politically active in Canada, claims to be a biological female. Claims that transitioning has made them an actual biological female, and you will be threatened with the full force of the law in Canada (Canada has hate speech laws) if you challenge this.