AIBU about Hadley Freeman?

[NoSquirrels]

She’s a bit of a crush of mine.

I’ve always loved her writing. But this week she wrote this about 80s movies which is so good.

www.theguardian.com/film/2018/mar/27/1980s-favourite-film-decade-top-gun-stand-by-me-hadley-freeman

She’s been all over the anti-Semitism protests and other issues.
And now she has articulated what I’ve been trying politely to say for ages about the Self ID issue.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/mar/31/man-explains-what-means-be-woman?CMP=ShareiOSAppOther

Please have a read! Then if she’s convinced you sign the petition.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

If she hasn’t feel free just to ignore or talk about 80s movies here, or general women-journalists-who-rock, or your own inappropriate crushes.

“What is it you want to say about Jews that you feel you aren't allowed to say?”

Absolutely nothing.

“perhaps you might think about why of all the countries in the world, it's the one and only Jewish country that you feel the need to define yourself in terms of thinking it should not exist“

I don’t think Israel should not exist. Which is why I no longer describe myself as an anti Zionist.

Well, that's a relief.

At what point did it dawn on you that denying Jews the right to self-determination might be problematic, and what triggered that change, out of interest?

"At what point did it dawn on you that denying Jews the right to self-determination might be problematic, and what triggered that change, out of interest?"

I am trying to talk in good faith. Suggesting that not supporting the policies of the Israeli government is synonymous with "denying Jews the right to self determination" is not talking in good faith.

Helmet

Further up I wrote (2) the increasingly vocal opposition by a section of the Jewish community to anyone who is a non-Jewish expressing views which aren’t flagrantly pro-Zionist, to the point of being branded anti-Semitic (I’m not commenting specifically on the mural here). (extraneous “a”, sorry for the typo)

This wasn’t a comment about Jews or Judaism. There was no generalising or stereotyping about caricatures or Jews wanting to control the media that another poster commented on afterwards. Within a few posts, my post was reported (presumably for deletion and presumably for being anti-Semitic or racist, I don’t know) - as if to prove my point for me.

It’s been almost a decade since I left the UK. I’ve bren reading Hadley Freeman since my early 20s (she’s a peer more or less). I used to live in France, and am aware of the arguably even greater tension that the Jewish people I know there are feeling (it’s been around 5 years since the first person told me that they fear for themselves and their family, that they want to leave France but don’t know where to go, never having been to Israel before and not having ties to any other country).

I live in New York. The “shutting down debate” analogy for here would be like saying “(2) the increasingly vocal opposition by a section of the Republican Party to anyone who doesn’t sing the anthem before a game/takes a knee during the anthem, to the point of those people being branded anti-American or a traitor”. That’s exactly what happens, and that is exactly what television and print and social media talk about - and nobody tries to stop that debate. Why would they? Those who take the knee defend their right to express their views. Those who find it unpatriotic day so - but don’t attempt to close debate on it notwithstanding finding them unAmerican and traitors and unpatriotic.

Does that help you understand at all.

You could argue that debate is being shut down in the Labour party but it is not by the members of the Jewish community shutting those who are not 'flagrantly pro-Zionist' up. Quiet the opposite.

Some members of the Labour Party (a party I have been a member of) are expressing, supporting or ignoring very disturbing views.

There are attempts to keep the Jewish community quiet in the same way they want to keep women quiet.

Some Labour supporters are anti Semitic. So are some Tory supporters. Boris Johnson is openly racist. There are arseholes in all parties. Vote for the party not the person. That’s what a parliamentary democracy is,

For me what's really disappointing is people refusing to even pause and consider whether there is a problem with anti semitism (there is), but just going straight to screaming "it's all an attempt to smear Corbyn!" As I said a few days ago on here, in a thread now deleted, there are groups with a vested interest in smearing Corbyn but also groups with a vested interest in shutting down all claims of anti semitism. I know there are anti semites in Labour and I know they feel more comfortable than ever before in expressing the hate. There may well be many anti semites in the Tory party, I wouldn't know, I am not a member or supporter and don't mix in the circles. But even if I had cast iron proof that there was an equivalent problem in the Tories, shouting about it should not be my response to hearing from Jewish people that they are appalled and angered and frightened by the way Labour is handling anti semitism! We don't fix our problems by pointing out that other people have problems too.

I have no fucking clue what Israel has to do with any of this and why people bring it up as part of this conversation. The Israeli government does appalling things. So does ours. So does the US government. So do the governments of Russia and Zimbabwe and North Korea and Myanmar and countless others. What relevance do the actions of the Israeli government have to Jewish people in Britain telling us they do not feel safe and free from persecution?

The Republican party is not an oppressed minority so that's not a very good analogy. I reported your post because I don't think it's true and I feel very uneasy when people say that they have experienced racism and it's dismissed out of hand. My Jewish friends in the UK feel increasingly unsafe. There are growing numbers of attacks on the Jewish community and we need to look at that.

I think this article by David Baddiel is good: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/david-baddiel-am-i-stinking-vermin-or-am-i-running-the-world-the-racists-think-its-both-mqsk3mmkv?shareToken=70fa37bb40f5a9ed6c48688f99127f02

Haddock

That faction of the Republican Party absolutely, 100% self identifies as an oppressed minority. That feeling of oppression is what Trump tapped to get to victory. Statistically they are a minority of the voting population, oppression is relative and subjective. I have my views on their opinions, but I can’t deny them the right to feel oppressed. I’m pretty sure they do feel oppressed.

To report my post because you don’t think it’s true is....I’m not entirely sure what. I’d say about 70% of what’s written on MN isn’t true; should I stop people from expressing themselves?

As a victim of racism on a near-daily basis, I am left more than uneasy when anyone attempts to brush off my experiences as “that’s not what they meant”, or “you have to make allowances”, “why does every little thing have be such a big deal with you”. I say the same thing for my near-daily experiences of sexism (I’m a woman).

And I project my feelings onto Jews and women and transgender people who go through the same shit, day in and day out. We’ve all got the scars.

But shutting down debate, closing off people’s emotions or experiences as invalid, putting my truth forward as the only truth, denying someone the right to reply - no. It cuts both ways. That makes me as blinkered and extremist as them. That’s not a society I want to live in.

I am glad your post was reported, Plum.

Your post sought to conflate anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism in order to provide a spurious justification for it, and again spread the lie that Jews in the UK who object to and fear the very real and continually increasing anti-Semitism in the UK are only doing it because they are secretly working on behalf of Israel, ie they have an underlying secret base motive for objecting to being subject to racism (other than...fear).

It's another version of the old anti-Semitic trope about Jewish conspiracy, only here it's cannily re-labelled as a 'Zionist conspiracy'. Let me just tell you you are fooling no-one.

But the society you live in is not the UK. You explain the nuances of the GOP to us and we are telling you in the U.K. today the shadow of antisemitism is real and it is worrying.

There are cries to stop persecuting Corbyn, he of the oppressed minority known as the white, middle class, man. We must not debate antisemitism within the party to save him.

And Plum - stop arguing that Jews are just like Republicans, you're embarrassing yourself with this list of anti-Semitic tropes.

The President of the US, the most powerful man in the world, and all his government, are Republicans. The Republicans won the elections in the US, voted in by 62 million people. In the UK, 0.4% of the population are Jewish. That's a grand total of about 250,000 people.

Seriously, stop embarrassing yourself.

@Bertrand

"I am trying to talk in good faith. Suggesting that not supporting the policies of the Israeli government is synonymous with "denying Jews the right to self determination" is not talking in good faith."

I was responding to your previous post, in which you said: "I don’t think Israel should not exist. Which is why I no longer describe myself as an anti Zionist."

That clearly implies a) that in the past you called yourself an anti-Zionist. And b) that you associate anti-Zionism with the belief that Israel has no right to exist.

So my question was quite reasonable and absolutely in good faith.

I was interested to hear what changed your mind.

Was it that you had previously used anti-Zionism to mean 'a critic of Israeli policy' and then realised that it actually meant rather more than that?

I'm genuinely interested. Though a bit confused by your posts.

Agree that Hadley is awesome OP

I love her.