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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU about Hadley Freeman?

267 replies

NoSquirrels · 31/03/2018 09:51

She’s a bit of a crush of mine.

I’ve always loved her writing. But this week she wrote this about 80s movies which is so good.

www.theguardian.com/film/2018/mar/27/1980s-favourite-film-decade-top-gun-stand-by-me-hadley-freeman

She’s been all over the anti-Semitism protests and other issues.
And now she has articulated what I’ve been trying politely to say for ages about the Self ID issue.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/mar/31/man-explains-what-means-be-woman?CMP=ShareiOSAppOther

Please have a read! Then if she’s convinced you sign the petition.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

If she hasn’t feel free just to ignore or talk about 80s movies here, or general women-journalists-who-rock, or your own inappropriate crushes.

OP posts:
CapnHaddock · 31/03/2018 23:41

Why aren't you answering my questions?

NoSquirrels · 31/03/2018 23:42

@stillscreaming You claimed that there were lobbyist and now you're saying activists, which is it?

Nope, not me. I’ve claimed no lobbyists. But activists can be paid to push agendas, and sometimes do so in innocence.

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NoSquirrels · 31/03/2018 23:46

Activists don’t just “wave placards” Hmm

Stonewall, Mermaids et al use activists with huge followings. YA writers catering to teen markets, fashionistas who are influencers on 20-somethings, out-and-proud trans speakers in all walks of life who have a platform.

That’s modern activism that “rad fems” don’t have.

But MN exists as a way for us to talk to women like us (not necessarily “rad fems” after all) and we’re being vilified all over the internet...

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Terftastic · 31/03/2018 23:50

So easy to dismiss it, isn't it stillscreaming. Hands over ears - "it's not happening, it's a crock of shit!" It is happening.

Pro-trans organisations are everywhere. They are many, and well funded. They are encouraging gender non-conforming to trans. Because they reinforce damaging gender stereotypes - the very gender stereotypes that feminists have been fighting for decades. They get funding from the govt, private companies, fund raising, Children in need, and lord knows where else. I'll collate some if you like?

twitter.com/LilyLilyMaynard/status/977691522694082560

This tweet is from a public blog by a parent with a gender non-conforming child. This child's anxiety and panic are pushed aside - the child needs a talking to outside the treatment room. Just gotta give them the damn injection.

Stillscreaming · 31/03/2018 23:54

I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t find many people “on the street” who would agree a woman can have a penis, no matter how inclusive they were to trans people. So I’m pretty sure the “vocal few” on MN aren’t unduly influencing my understanding of biology.

As a non Britisher, I can say that one of the things I enjoyed most about living with them, is that they are fairly liberal. They don't really care what anyone else is up to.

Most people have an understanding of biology, more or less. Personally I don't put too much emphasis on my own but I have found that a surprising number of exclusionists imagine themselves to have an understanding that far surpasses reality. Some even want to have a say in how doctors prescribe drugs to trans children. That alarms me, people with no medical training presuming to know better than qualified clinicians.

I actually don’t feel particularly oppressed, but I do recognise that there are ways in which women could be oppressed by this law coming to pass if all the issues aren’t discussed.

That's good. How do you imagine that the changes in the law are going to effect you? My understanding is that the changes propose making it easier to obtain a GRC, which is used for things like obtaining a passport, driving licence etc. As someone who isn't trans why would you be worried by the amount of paperwork a trans person has to do?

I’m more interested in the free speech element and the awful #nodebate stuff than keeping pre-op trans out of bathrooms.

I like free speech too. I find, for a group who claim to be interested in free speech, your group often seem reluctant to engage. You say 'biology' a lot but there's very little actual engagement. I asked a number of questions on the 'why haven't you signed the petition yet' thread but I've had no answers yet.

NoSquirrels · 31/03/2018 23:58

Most people have an understanding of biology, more or less. Personally I don't put too much emphasis on my own but I have found that a surprising number of exclusionists imagine themselves to have an understanding that far surpasses reality
Confused
Grin

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Terftastic · 31/03/2018 23:59

As a non Britisher, I can say that one of the things I enjoyed most about living with them, is that they are fairly liberal. They don't really care what anyone else is up to.

Are you living in the UK now, stillscreaming?

NoSquirrels · 01/04/2018 00:02

Oh @stillscreaming you are a HOOT!
Advance search me - or try to recall what I’ve said in the past on this issue or have a look on that petition thread you mention. I’ve engaged with you loads in the name of free speech. If you’re not understanding any of my finely nuanced arguments about women’s reproductive biology not being a matter for debate, then I’m afraid I can’t help you tonight.

Feel free to chalk this one up to the “unwilling to engage” sure if you must.

Happy Easter!

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Stillscreaming · 01/04/2018 00:02

So easy to dismiss it, isn't it stillscreaming. Hands over ears - "it's not happening, it's a crock of shit!" It is happening.

I'm not dismissing you, I'm asking for proof that it's happening. I've told you that Stonewall publish their training materials on their website and that what someone on the Internet has claimed, doesn't match their source material.

They are many, and well funded

Who are these groups, what are they called?

This tweet is from a public blog by a parent with a gender non-conforming child.

You've given my an unsourced block of text. What is the blog called, where can I find it? Is this a British child? What kind of assessment have they been through? What has been the outcome? Where is the rest of the blog?

yetanothertranswoman · 01/04/2018 00:03

My understanding is that the changes propose making it easier to obtain a GRC, which is used for things like obtaining a passport, driving licence etc

That's not quite correct.

I got my 'gender' changed on my passport and my driving licence with a letter from the GP and a deed poll. But that meant nothing under the GRA. It was all part of the paperwork to help prove transition.

I got my GRC after sending in my paperwork and then 2 letters from medical professionals discussing my surgery and confirming my diagnosis. I needed the diagnosis to get surgery and I needed the paperwork to get the diagnosis so you could say there is a lot of excess bureaucracy..

A GRC is a legal document giving my a certain status under the GRA - unlike someone undergoing gender reassignment.

There is a difference.

NoSquirrels · 01/04/2018 00:03

Last petition link, just because:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

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Terftastic · 01/04/2018 00:03

If you answer my question about living in the UK, I'll answer yours.

ArcheryAnnie · 01/04/2018 00:04

My other half is a former professional gay, she's sat in Home Office meeting on LGTB issues and she's not aware of the trans lobby but, as you obviously know more, I'd like you to 'open my eyes'.

This says a great deal more about her judgement than about the presence of the trans lobby, Stillscreaming.

(I am reminded of the trans inclusion officer at Stonewall, who claims never to have met any detransitioners - all that means is either they are lying, or they are just really shit at their job.)

Stillscreaming · 01/04/2018 00:06

If you’re not understanding any of my finely nuanced arguments about women’s reproductive biology not being a matter for debate, then I’m afraid I can’t help you tonight.

Bless you, you're argument can be called a lot of things but finely nuanced isn't one of them. Happy Easter to you and your reproductive organs. I wish you both much chocolate.

Terftastic · 01/04/2018 00:10

Let's just say for a moment, stillscreaming, the blog is real (the tweet is by Lily Maynard, a journalist, and nobody has called her out on it) so let's just say it's genuine. It's possible she doesn't want to be accused of "outing" a child, because that accusation has been made in the past to people linking critically to such blogs.

If it's not genuine, then fine, you can be right - this is just not happening.

But if it is real - let's just say hypothetically it's real - would you be concerned?

Stillscreaming · 01/04/2018 00:11

Are you living in the UK now, stillscreaming?

No, I'm finding Thr UK a bit depressing just now. I still have a flat in London but I don't visit much, just to vote and stuff. I spend most of my time in Ireland, the land of legal self ID, a lovely place.

KrisMulreedy · 01/04/2018 00:13

Hadley Freeman is one of my favourite columnists. Her and Peter Hitchens.

NoSquirrels · 01/04/2018 00:14

Bless you
Easter Grin

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yetanothertranswoman · 01/04/2018 00:15

n Ireland, the land of legal self ID, a lovely place

You do know about the concerns many transsexuals have over the proposed changes to the GRA, including self ID, given the effort it takes to 'prove' the dysphoria we have?

And now other trans people just want to self declare?

Terftastic · 01/04/2018 00:16

And can I just say, I suspect from your previous comment that you don't currently live in Britain.

British and US parents are commenting on organisations going into schools to raise "trans awareness" - and that their children are coming out with such impressions as I detailed above. Another example is US children being read "I am Jazz" book in primary school. But you're just denying this happens?

I have children in British schools, and I am concerned about this - you are absolutely not in a position to call such reports "a crock of shit" - you have no idea.

Terftastic · 01/04/2018 00:19

Oh, I see I'm right. Ireland - that bastion of women's rights, where women can't even get an legal abortion if the foetus has a condition incompatible with life, or they were raped, you mean? They have to travel here, mainland UK, for it.

ArcheryAnnie · 01/04/2018 00:20

Transgendertrend have a very slick website that was obviously very expensive to put together, so I'm wondering if they are following the rad fem habit of taking money from Christain fundamentalists.

Oh, Stillscreaming, you were doing quite well keeping to your serious voice with the concern-trolling, but with this statement you've rather jumped the shark.

OK, it's obviously to everyone on the planet except you (and the other TRAs desperate to paint women-centred-women as bad) that TRAs and the US Christian Right have the following things in common:

  • they claim the right to control women's bodies
  • they claim the right to silence women's voices
  • they fear and hate lesbians, even as they are excited by them
  • they insist that male-bodied people be centred in every walk of life
  • they dress up this fear, hatred and control of women in the language of good and purity.

If anyone is being funded by the Christian Right, it's not women's groups. We all know this. You know this. Your faux-concerned "oh my goodness, I am noticing a pattern" fools nobody.

But the thing that's got me posting is to ask: are you really unaware that there are women in tech?

Stillscreaming · 01/04/2018 00:21

@ Terftastic

You said it was a public blog, I don't see what the privacy issue is.

If it's real, it proves that a child was distressed when having an injection. I don't find that weird. If a child has gone through months or even years of assessment before this injection, which I honestly expect they have, I don't find it alarming that they became emotional when it finally happened.

It could mean that the child didn't want the injection, it could equally mean that the child was in tears of happiness at finally being treated for something that has caused them so much stress and worry. You've given me a blank two paragraphs of a child's whole life. No one can make a reasonable assessment on that basis.

I hope that no one would treat a child on so little evidence or would deny a child treatment on the basis of two paragraphs. It's just not enough to know.

Stillscreaming · 01/04/2018 00:24

Oh, I see I'm right. Ireland - that bastion of women's rights, where women can't even get an legal abortion if the foetus has a condition incompatible with life, or they were raped, you mean? They have to travel here, mainland UK, for it.

In all fairness, I'm not personally reponsible for the 8th amendment. I've been doing my bit to get rid of it. 😀

Terftastic · 01/04/2018 00:28

That's dismissal, stillscreaming. I asked you a specific question - the child wasn't upset by an injection, the child was upset when being listed the consequences of the drug they were about to be injected with.

Hypothetically - do you agree that child should have been taken outside and 'calmed down' and pressured to have that injection? I would like to point out they are reported to be 'genderqueer' which I understand is different from trans.

As I say, Debbie Hayton doesn't provide a link, but that could be due to privacy concerns. People have been criticised and even banned from twitter for 'outing' children.

But hypothetically - assume it's real - what would be your feelings? Do you think this should happen to children who are below the age of consent?