In thinking DH's attitude is absolutely ridiculous? I'm seething!

[justkeeponsmiling]

For reference, we have 3 DC: DD (17), DD (12) ), DS (8). DH and I got together when eldest DD was 18 months old, he treats her like his own and her biological father is not on the scene these days (her choice, he was being a total cunt and she cut contact last year).

Eldest DD will be 18 in a couple of months. She has always been quite nerdy and generally a "good girl", always very responsible, never really going out on the piss, only ever had one boyfriend last year and too my knowledge hasn't even had sex yet - though I realise I might be wrong on this front. So we've never really experienced most of the trials and tribulations that most parents of teenagers experience.

So a couple of days ago DD asks if she can go to her (male) friend's house in the afternoon, after work. She has met this lad through a mutual friend last summer and met him a few times, never been to his place. Not that it makes much of a difference I suppose, but he is 18 and still lives at home. She informs me she will be taking public transport home and get home around 9pm. Of course, no problem. She then asks I'd she would be allowed to have a few drinks at this lads house. I say yes, sure but don't get drunk (last year, one one of the extremely rare occasions DD went for a night out she got extremely drunk and was very lucky she didn't die, due to engaging in some pretty stupid behaviour. It was awful and she knows I still get a bit twitchy when she mentions having a drink, hence her asking if I would mind). So as not to dripfeed, DD was diagnosed with depression last year, mostly brought on by her biological father's cuntish behaviour, and has had a course of ADs and counselling. She dropped out of school and lost a lot of friends at the time. She is much better now and to be honest I'm fucking delighted she is making new friends and going out socialising again!

So as promised, DD came home an out 9:30 last night, obviously quite tipsy. I made her some food, we sat down together while she was eating and she told me she had a fab time - this lad had another mate round who DD knew from school and together they had a few alcopops and played xbox. DH overhears this conversation and halfway through gets up from watching TV and stops upstairs to the bedroom without a word, where he stayed until all DD had gone to bed. When he eventually reappeared I asked him what the matter was as I could tell something was up.

Apparently "he didn't like what he was hearing", so to avoid an argument he thought he would go upstairs. Turns out DH thought it was not ok that DD was in the house with two lads drinking alcohol. He kept asking me if I was ok with it - umm yes?! It was the afternoon, she informed me of her plans, checked if she was allowed a few drinks, didn't get legless and came home as she had promised. I really fail to see the problem! But no - apparently DH, who used to get pissed and take drugs in his mother's shed with his mates from the age of 15 feels it's wrong for a girl to be in the hose with two lads drinking. At very nearly 18 years of age. I was absolutely gobsmacked. I feel that given his own youth he clearly has horrendous double standards, and it makes me really angry that in his head he is turning an afternoon of fun into something seedy and inappropriate. I wasn't even able to discuss this with him - apparently I can't criticise his view because "that is his opinion", and what is he possibly meant to do if this is how he feels?!
I suddenly feel like I am married to some matron from the dark ages and I now absolutely dread our middle DD starting to go out and be a teenager in a few years. His attitude makes me so angry and his complete refusal to discuss the matter is IMO just ridiculous. AIBU to really struggle to get past this? I have no idea how to deal with his attitude!

I think if you have

1)low self-esteem
2) suffer from/have suffered from depression
3) are not part of a close group of female friends
4) do have not had the experience of consistent loving care from your biological father
5) are not brought up by parental figures who can communicate well with each other about your welfare

then as a teenager you are more likely to be a target for uncaring and/or abusive and/or selfish men. This is likely to compound the difficulties you have in reaching emotional maturity.

I know. I've been there.

I was waiting for the 'cool mum' tag to happen on here. Bingo!

It's not about being a cool mum FFS. It's about gradually giving a teen who is approaching adulthood some freedom to make decisions, to make mistakes, to learn from those mistakes, to gradually loosen the hold you have over them, to hope that you have laid the foundations of good behaviour, morals, right and wrong so that they can fly as an adult.

If that's being a cool mum, I put my hand up to that.

I've got adult DCs, one was fairly taxing as a 17 year old (never did anything bad but pushed me to the limits). I let her make minor mistakes, she had an unsuitable boyfriend, she did some daft things but isn't this all part of learning for the future? Ditto number 2 DD, ditto DSS. I always knew where they were at 17, I kept close tabs on them (mostly unbeknown to them!) but OTOH I didn't limit them, I'm sorry at 17, you have to start trusting them.

I'll never forget my eldest DD saying to me (when I was worked up at her coming in late by half an hour or something relatively minor). She said 'Mum, please please trust me. I've never done anything bad, I don't take drugs, I don't sleep around, I don't do half of what others at school do, just trust me, I won't let you down with big things, I promise'.

I needed that.

We all tend to come at threads like this with out own anecdotal experiences, which aren't helpful. Life was very different in the 70's/80's90's when ever, and we are all very different people, some of us are equipped to deal with situations and some are not.

I can certainly think of several completely stupid and reckless unwise decisions I made as teenager, which had my parents known about, would have prevented me from making.

I'm in agreement with Olivia and Harriett - everyone is deflecting anger on the DH in this situation where the really issues aren't being addressed. The whole house hold seems a little high energy what with begging and pleading . It all seems so dramatic and wanting confrontation.

I agree with Chocolaterainbows, I'm afraid... for a very good reason. When my DD was a little older than yours (ie, she was legally an adult), she went to the house of a boy she'd met through people she was at college with, in the afternoon, who lived at home still.

And he raped her.

Your DD was fortunate, in my opinion, that this boy and his friend didn't have ulterior motives in getting her there and "tipsy", OP. Because sadly, we live in a world where boys do get away with far more than girls, where they think they have the right to do as they want, when they want, how they want, and with who they want, irrespective of whether a girl wants to, or not. Yes, it's lovely that your DD is finally making friends, and that she's come through the other side of a depressive episode - but drinking in the afternoon, alone in a house with two young men? Not the greatest idea in the world, I'm afraid. And as her mother, perhaps you should be educating her in not placing herself in a position where she might not be safe. Because, believe me, when my DD was raped, she wouldn't report it the police because she knew... she knew... that they wouldn't believe it wasn't consensual, purely because she had willingly gone to the house, in the afternoon, alone, and willingly consumed a shot of Jack Daniels with him. She knew that she wouldn't be believed. And, as her mother, I have had to watch her descent from that day... and I'd not wish that on anyone. Least of all a seemingly very naive and too-trusting-for-her-own-safety young woman.

So I side with your husband, OP. He is undoubtedly more aware than you of a young man's possible/potential ulterior motives towards a young woman, and he is also possibly very conscious in moments like this that your oldest daughter isn't biologically his child. So his walking away and avoiding her for a while was the right thing for him to do in that moment.

Contrary

Fgs not all boys are rapists!

It’s not a matter of “disapproving”- I don’t know most of ds’s friends. It’s a matter of helping him not to put himself in potentially risky situations. As it happens, he is lucky to have pretty robust mental health, plenty of self confidence and a well tuned bullshit detector. So I am as sure as I can be that he can look after himself and other people. He’s called me in a couple of times when the cavalry were needed so I know that many others are less well equipped.

contrary what a truly awful thing to happen to your DD. Absolutely dreadful.

However... on the flip side of this, there are posters here who did spend time with boys their age who were friends, my DDs had lots of friends who were males, they spent one on one time with them or as a group. This like saying we shouldn't get in a car because it could crash.

Someone upthread talking of a safe phrase or word that a DD or DS can use. We did that. It meant that if my DCs wanted to come home, they wouldn't lose face with their peers.

Anyone who doesn't see that, drunk, a lone woman with two men is in a more dangerous situation than a lone man with two women is living in cloud cuckoo land.

I was very nearly raped at that age in almost exactly those circumstances. It's not a question of sexism it's a question of common sense.

As a busineswoman on a conference I would never go to the hotel room with two men I din't know well and get "tipsy".

Give your DH credit for caring and talk through the risks and sensible strategies with him.

I wouldn't be happy with the drinking, particularly if she's using it as a way to get in with friends socially. Dd is 18 and does drink, but not during the day. I would struggle with what to say about it probably just let her know I disapprove then it's up to her

Yeah if she didn't know thm well then that's a weird situation to be in. I'm with your dp.

It's not about being a cool mum FFS. It's about gradually giving a teen who is approaching adulthood some freedom to make decisions, to make mistakes, to learn from those mistakes, to gradually loosen the hold you have over them, to hope that you have laid the foundations of good behaviour, morals, right and wrong so that they can fly as an adult

100% agree with this. Ds2 is the easiest teenager ever (don’t worry, ds1 is having the most dreadful teen experience, we all deserved a break) but the thing I am most pleased about is the amount he talks to me, tells me & asks my opinion. You don’t get that if you spend your time being incredibly dictatorial. That doesn’t mean you don’t have boundaries or rules - just that you start to back off a bit and give them more responsibility, more privacy and freedom to do what they want (& not have to tell you).

Ds3’s is more closed & an anxious child in many ways. I am expecting him to have rockier teen years than Ds2 but because I know he’s anxious will be prioritising communication over everything else.

No-one is saying she can't have friends or that all boys are rapists but helping her to assess the risks and giving her strategies to get out of difficult situations would be a start.

QuiteLikely5

Her daughter was raped. Show some respect ffs.

In OP’s shoes I would be talking to her specifically about how to get out of the situation if she becomes uncomfortable (a coded text to a parent seems a popular way these days). I wouldn’t be showing a lot of disapproval because that would make it less likely she would call for me to help if she ended up in a sticky situation.
This^^
Plus you need to discuss with your DH that if he demonstrates his disapproval vigorously like that without discussing why he disapproves then it is likely to just entrench whatever it is she’s doing- eg turn a passing relationship into a ‘grand passion’
of the Romeo and Juliet variety. We found with DSD once she was that age it was best to make it clear it was her choice and we were there for her whatever (because what if something happens and she feels she can’t ask for help) but x,y and z were our concerns about the situation.

I agree Devilish and don't we all know that if you're bombastic and enforce strict rules or ban people from the house, or go ballistic when they're ten minutes late home... kids will become secretive.

I wanted to keep all lines of communication open and many a time mine asked for my advice, somtimes in a roundabout way, sometimes straight off... they needed help growing up, sometimes they were unsure about stuff and that's when I was so glad they could talk to me.

Your husband needs to calm down.

I grew up (from the age of 4 till around 15) with a group of boys. Two brothers loved across the road,mother neighbour and a boy down the street. All the same rough age group. Those were my friends.

Made new friends at school and played with them in school and at parties but my outside of school friends were those boys. We went through all the growing up stuff, trying alchohol etc and nothing bad happened.

Bad stuff does happen, but you could use that as an excuse to simply not live your life.

Your daught is an adult now and if her dad keeps treating her like this for doing something completely not wrong, then he will lose her. She's probably had enough of dads treating her like shit with her bio dad. She won't want if from the man who raised her and she's grown now. She'll be moving out, meeting people and having boyfriends. But she will never want to come home and tell you both incase he acts like a child.

Not all men are predators.

She needs to be able to go into the workplace and further education or whatever she chooses, and be comfortable working with and making friends with men.

Teach her self defence, safe words etc if your husband is really worried. But you can't say "it's not safe to be alone with boys" - how is she going to date, hang out with new friends?

Bad things happen, but don't stop living your life. It's not like she went to a drugs den. She went to someone's house to hang out and almost all the time, that is safe. Bad things do happen and you don't know if this will be one of those times, but she didn't go off to an orgy or rave.

It’s amazing , this Mumsnet tendency to say “you are unreasonable to be concerned in this situation because this completely different situation is absolutely fine”

I understand the whole being annoyed at her spending time drinking in some random bloke’s house, but my biggest concern is your dh’s shitty sulking. That’s pathetic. He needs to be able to discuss this kind of thing without doing a strop. Where’s your support?

QuiteLikely5 Fri 30-Mar-18 08:59:20
Contrary

Fgs not all boys are rapists!

***

No one is saying they are!! I have older brothers who treat women with nothing but respect, and I adore men in general but I would never want my daughter in this situation! To people who keep saying about having male friends etc, yes, so did I. But these were not school friends! It was one man she had met a couple of times and a stranger. Obviously there is risk involved there.

I would be wary in this situation as well, and would agree with the DH. Not with the sulking, but that does seem to be how some men react, I can imagine my DH walking away to avoid an argument. (He wouldn't do the silent treatment though.)

Your DD is vulnerable and has low self esteem, and she doesn't know these lads well. You don't know that they can be trusted, basically. One of them could easily spike her drink, it does happen. Obviously I've had bad experiences and can think the worst, but your DD is socially naive and has got into trouble before when alcohol has been involved.

Bert, I think people's point is that the husband is behaving like all men are predators. First, the behaviour with the boyfriend and now with male friends. That's not healthy.

The examples are people trying to be like "hey, not all men are predators and you can't go through life scared to be alone with boys". That's what the dad is trying to teach her with his attitude.

Maybe he's read all the threads about the Ulster rugby boys and doesn't want his DD to go through anything similar. Maybe irrational, but understandable.