To not want a stranger asking my daughter if she thinks she's a boy

[moonmaker]

Really cross about this
My daughter is at an all girls secondary
She said they had an lgbt workshop at school yesterday but it was predominantly about gender identity .
Some of the things said were :
Are you sure you're a girl ?and why do you think you're a girl ?
You have a choice , you can choose to be male
Don't worry about your religion getting in the way , you can b x religion and trans
A good percentage of you , statistically speaking , are going to be trans
Being a boy / girl is a 'feeling ' so you can change

Am very unhappy about this. Why should 12 year old girls be forced to speak with a stranger about their sexual identity and orientation ? In dds words 'it was like he was forcing us to admit we are trans' 'I had to go along with it or get a detention'
Would it be acceptable for adults to be made to speak with someone they don't know or trust about something like this ?
I believe it's dangerous telling girls they can be men if they want to . And irresponsible .
We're supposed to be telling our young women that they can do anything as women, pursue whatever interests, hobbies or career and that makes them no less a woman . Wtf is going on ?
I want to call school today and discuss this . What should I say ?

And who is saying that men who have long hair have to be women? Or women who have short hair have to be men?
I was making the point that people were saying it was old fashioned to consider make up and long her etc to be female. When the majority of people who wear make up and have long hair are female. That is a fact regardless of exceptions.

So...speaking as someone who is trans, I do know groups that work with schools to send in 'role models' into school. To talk about their experiences and to show children who might be like the role model that they are not the only one out there.

Role models are a good thing for children to see - otherwise they get an image that certain things can only be done by certain groups and that people like them aren't represented. It also gives other children a chance to see different groups out there that they might not have seen.

BUT - what is the job of the role model and how do they explain what their group is?

There are LGB role models - they go in and talk about being gay, relationships etc. I don't know what they discuss and I don't know if they discuss with children about being gay and I don't know if children are asked if they are gay. I am sure the message is that it's ok to be gay and to question your sexuality. I am sure some people remember Section 28.

And there are trans role models. I think there are a range of trans role models - from drag queens through to transsexuals. I know there was an outcry in the press when a drag queen read a story about diversity to children.

I don't know what trans people say to children. I don't know what message they give out. As people know, being trans means many different things to people - including trans people. For some, it's about the body and is really hard to explain, for others it's gender based as seems to be discussed here.

It is ok to be trans. It is also ok to be someone who is not trans but who does things that people of their sex aren't usually associated with due to societal expectations

. You're going to have children who are transsexual and you are going to have children who really want to do things that fall outside of societal expectations.

I don't think someone should be asking a child if they are trans. I think most trans people know at that age - but there are many who aren't trans but think they are due to what's happening at the moment.

I don't know about the role models. It's good for children to see diverse people but it depends on the message they are giving out. The message could easily be misinterpreted by vulnerable minds.

But there are going to be trans children in the school who could benefit from trans role models - as there are other children in the school who benefit from role models.

I never did the role models bit - I thought it was a minefield.But I know trans people who do. I don't know if they are the 'right people' to do the job and I don't know what messages they give out.

THats terrible. I have two teens - both straight afaik & both the gender/sex they were born in to. If they came out as gay I wouldn’t bat an eyelid & I’d wish them well on their quest for a partner. If they wanted to transition I’d be very upset and concerned for them. Being gay is much more accepted than being trans in society, surely.

No objection to trans people going in and educating children that people could be trans and there's nothing wrong with that

HUGE objection to people going in and telling children they might be trans and getting them to question their gender.

I wouldn't be happy at all

I think most trans people know at that age - but there are many who aren't trans but think they are due to what's happening at the moment.

This is my absolute fear. It's not an easy thing to come back from if you start making that change. I went through a period when I was about 14/15 of thinking I might be a lesbian. I wasn't as it turned out and that was fine. If I'd started thinking I was a boy and gone down the reassignment route that's not so easy.

JustDanceAddict I'd say being a butch young lesbian is far less accepted than being a young trans boy, which has certainly played a part in the exponential rise in adolescent girl referrals to gender clinics.

justanothertranswoman the way you use trans as if it were like 'gay' is a real misdirection.

gay is same sex attraction.
The sex of the person in question is categorical fact.
Their attraction to others exclusively of the same sex is fact also.
There's nothing to dispute about whether this is a real phenomenon.

trans is....what exactly?
people of the male sex who believe - what?
people of the female sex who believe?

It has a name to imply it should have credibility, but in fact what it is is people of unambiguous sex who hold a false belief that they share some commonality with the opposite sex.
There's simply no fact or logic about the whole thing.
Many people use the words to be polite, but it doesn't mean we actually believe there is a factual basis to the belief that people are actually trans. People who identify as trans believe they are trans, but it's OK to reject the idea entirely, as I do.

I refer to trans people as I would creationists - I can call them by their label if they wish, and of course, the people exist, but the concept they use to define themselves isn't real.

BarrackerBarmer
gay is same sex attraction.
The sex of the person in question is categorical fact.
Their attraction to others exclusively of the same sex is fact also.
There's nothing to dispute about whether this is a real phenomenon.

What determines sexuality Barracker?

I don't understand your question - can you rephrase?

Are you asking for a definition of sexual arousal?

Sexuality in the context given means sexual orientation, Barracker.

nless you wouldn’t bat an eyelid at a male identifying man going about his business in a full face of make up with bum length hair (and I expect that would induce a fit of vapours in many on this thread)

Someone is not familiar with the Norwegian black metal scene.

what determines sexuality?

who one is sexually attracted to.

(I still don't think I understand what you are asking)

Bloody hell our world is going nuts!
I’m all for awareness and support, and it’s great that as a society we have become far more open and accepting re people’s choices, but.......
It sounds like it was very badly handled indeed.
It’s like when we’re told we can’t refer to our children as boys or girls! Wtf!?

Bonkers!!! I'd be unhappy about this too.

I’m taking this thread at face value, as it hadn’t been commented on by MN, even though the OP not wanting to clarify with the school makes me rather

I’d be unhappy with the facts as reported. But I’d be happy with a workshop on trans issues depending how it was framed. I am gender critical but very sympathetic to trans people who suffer discrimination. I am very worried about rapid onset gender disphoria in teens.

I’ve signed the petition and if you haven’t I’d encourage you to. Schools in particular need to be clear on the messages around gender and how it is presented, imo.

BarrackerBarmer
what determines sexuality?

who one is sexually attracted to.

(I still don't think I understand what you are asking)

Keeping in mind the part of your post that I quoted - what determines whether somebody is gay or not? What decides a person's sexual orientation? How can you tell a person's orientation?

This really happened? In a school? Prove it.

Why are you asking these questions, they seem so odd?

I've answered what determines is someone is gay already, upthread
Your second question is the same as the first

You can't 'tell' a person's orientation reliably by looking. Although some people will give visual and behavioural clues.
You can determine their sex with good accuracy, but not their sexuality by visuals alone.

Can you make a point please? I've humoured you but this is quite weird now. I literally have no idea where you're going with this, or what your point is.

Moonmaker, I'm interested to know, if it was a LGBT workshop were LGB discussed? Or was it entirely focussed on trans?

I'm glad you think this is incredulous mornings . I only wish it weren't true .

What was the name of the organization that ran the workshop?

Retired secondary head here. Feel free to message me if you want any further advice about how to approach the school about this. It sounds a tad dodgy to me - safeguarding precludes asking children leading questions about their sexuality.