To not want a stranger asking my daughter if she thinks she's a boy

[moonmaker]

Really cross about this
My daughter is at an all girls secondary
She said they had an lgbt workshop at school yesterday but it was predominantly about gender identity .
Some of the things said were :
Are you sure you're a girl ?and why do you think you're a girl ?
You have a choice , you can choose to be male
Don't worry about your religion getting in the way , you can b x religion and trans
A good percentage of you , statistically speaking , are going to be trans
Being a boy / girl is a 'feeling ' so you can change

Am very unhappy about this. Why should 12 year old girls be forced to speak with a stranger about their sexual identity and orientation ? In dds words 'it was like he was forcing us to admit we are trans' 'I had to go along with it or get a detention'
Would it be acceptable for adults to be made to speak with someone they don't know or trust about something like this ?
I believe it's dangerous telling girls they can be men if they want to . And irresponsible .
We're supposed to be telling our young women that they can do anything as women, pursue whatever interests, hobbies or career and that makes them no less a woman . Wtf is going on ?
I want to call school today and discuss this . What should I say ?

Exactly Flippety, I wanted to be a pilot when I was a little girl. I was obviously confused and really want to be a boy. Hey Females can wear trousers, have short hair, play computer games and do masculine jobs too. It's not just the preserve of Males.

What exactly is it that pupils aren’t confident enough to disagree with? That some people feel as if they should be a different sex and prefer to be referred to as the other sex/may take medication or have surgical intervention to align their physical appearance with their wishes? That’s not up for dispute surely? It happens.
Learning about trans people isn’t going to turn people trans mo more than learning about homosexuality turns people gay or learning about Judaism turns people Jewish or any other number of comparisons.
No organisation tells children they should be a different sex. Has anyone on here clutching their pearls actually had a child turn trans due to being educated about it at school?

Nobody's clutching their pearls pork people are acknowledging frustration with the way the subject is being handled. Can I suggest you do some research into how much the occurrence of teen-trans has risen in the last few years since it's been "mainstream" and how many actually regret their decision later down the line?

Since it’s become mainstream or since it’s become more acceptable to be open about it? Are you saying that the increase is definitely a result of education in schools?
What is the alternative? We pretend the issue doesn’t exist and the teens who feel this way just have to accept it’s not normal and they’ll be bullied. Because if children aren’t educated about difference that’s what happens.

I'm especially disappointed this happened in an all-girls' school. Mine was excellent at challenging stereotypes and at telling us we could do and be whatever we wanted. We could climb trees, play sports, do woodwork. We could be scientists, serious journalists, business-owners. Our HT would not have entertained a list of sexist stereotypes that limited our interests or potential.

No, I'm saying that there should be an education programme about it but that education programme should absolutely NOT entail getting children to question their own gender, nor should it suggest that if you don't conform to the male/female gender stereotype from 1950s that you have been born into the wrong body.

There should be education around the fact that this happens to some people and we should respect those people. It is not the norm (in as much as it won't happen to most people) and it shouldn't be suggested that a "large percentage" of teens will go through this.

That some people feel as if they should be a different sex and prefer to be referred to as the other sex/may take medication or have surgical intervention to align their physical appearance with their wishes? That’s not up for dispute surely? It happens.

Yes it does. No, they shouldn't be bullied for it. But, crucially - No, it doesn't make them the other sex.

Well in that case surely the op needs to find out what was actually involved. ‘Are you sure you’re a girl?’ may be inappropriate from someone’s runnng the course but I could well imagine it being something a child might say to another in a small group discussion. Should we tell inquisitive children what questions they can and can’t ask?
The op doesn’t seem to be interested in what was actually taught though. The very suggestion that people can feel like and refer to themselves as the opposite sex is clearly an issue.
Things like long hair, make up etc aren’t necessarily female attributes but unless you wouldn’t bat an eyelid at a male identifying man going about his business in a full face of make up with bum length hair (and I expect that would induce a fit of vapours in many on this thread) you have to accept that at the present time these features are more associated with women. If more women have cropped hair, wear no make up, have equal access to male dominated careers etc than what is seen as female and male would change.

I totally agree Flippety, I coukd not have put it better myself. it shoukd not involve challenging childrens identity, especially if they don't conform to rudgid gender stereotypes. But to explain that some people feel that they have been born in the wrong sex and a Boy might identify as being Female and want to become one, and vice versa, and take steps to transition. They are called Transwomen and Men.

Pork I'm sorry, I'm not understanding your point at all.

If more women have cropped hair, wear no make up, have equal access to male dominated careers etc than what is seen as female and male would change. Why? I have cropped hair, wear no make up and in a male-dominated industry. I have never been seen as, or felt like, anything other than a woman.

So you accept that some people are hugely distressed to the point of surgically altering their appearance yet you feel the need to remind them that they weren’t born that way. Why? What do you get out of that?

Well the majority of people with long hair and who wear make up are women so it is associated with women whether you do those things or not.

Pork you seem to be going somewhat off track with your arguments. What are you talking about that people want to remind transmen/women that they weren't born that way?

Yes, I agree that the majority of people with long hair are women and it is associated with women but it does not at all mean that if you don't do this you have been born in the wrong body. I'm not sure you're getting what I'm saying, and I'm certainly not entirely understanding what you're trying to say.

Not all biological women do Pork and that's fine, they are still Female if they want to be, if they don't, and want to identify as being Trans Male that is also fine too.

Learning about trans people isn’t going to turn people trans mo more than learning about homosexuality turns people gay or learning about Judaism turns people Jewish or any other number of comparisons.

But the whole point is what is trans? Is it someone who is really uncomfortable with their body and its biological sex or is it someone who doesn't fit a narrow range of 'gender' stereotypes?

“A full face of the vapours” . ...honestly how ridiculous. Many women who are questioning this crap were teenagers in the 80s, like me. Almost all the boys I knew had a full face of makeup and two cans of hairspray. Were they girls? No. Were they trans? No. Most were heterosexual, a few were gay. Makeup and long hair...yawn. We were the people clubbing with Leigh Bowery and Boy George ffs.

Things like long hair, make up etc aren’t necessarily female attributes but unless you wouldn’t bat an eyelid at a male identifying man going about his business in a full face of make up with bum length hair (and I expect that would induce a fit of vapours in many on this thread) you have to accept that at the present time these features are more associated with women. If more women have cropped hair, wear no make up, have equal access to male dominated careers etc than what is seen as female and male would change.

I don't know where you live or when you were born, PorkFlute, but I'm in my 50s and I live in London. When I was a child, long-haired hippies were on the news all the time, boys and girls dressing the same way, and although I gathered from my parents' response that many were outraged by this it became a very common sight and lost its novelty value. Then in the early 70s there was glam rock, rapidly followed by punk and the New Romantics, all movements where men dressed flamboyantly and sported a lot of make-up but were still obviously male.

I wouldn't bat an eyelid at the sight of a man with long hair (that is so common I don't even register it any more) and while a man in make-up out on the street is not a humdrum sight, it really isn't that out of the way. Women not wearing make-up is so commonplace I can't understand why you even mention it. I've scarcely ever worn make-up and I usually have short hair. Nobody has ever had the slightest difficulty identifying me as female.

Fit of the vapours indeed! What a ridiculous remark.

nless you wouldn’t bat an eyelid at a male identifying man going about his business in a full face of make up with bum length hair (and I expect that would induce a fit of vapours in many on this thread)

See this shows you don't seem to understand what being gender critical means at all. Which are the points women are trying patiently to make to you. Try harder next time.

Stonewall seem to be quite anti gender stereotype, I can't see a secondary teaching resource but here's an early years one:

www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/getting_started_early_years.pdf

Interested to know if this is a government education class advised by mermaids

What on earth has gone wrong with society and gender stereotypes? In some ways we had fewer of them forty years ago than we seem to have now.

I should have seen the writing on the wall a few years ago when I got the alumnus magazine from my old school, which was single sex when I was there. It subsequently merged with a boys' school. When I was there I can honestly say there was no stigma of any kind (within school, anyway) attached to choosing sciences and maths subjects. I didn't, but about half my year group did and most of them went on to do STEM degree courses. It was a long time before I grasped how incredibly lucky we were to have that level of teaching and encouragement.

Fast forward to the 2010s and there was a column from a current sixth former clearly aimed at younger girls telling them in quite a patronising way that it was fine for girls to do science and maths, those weren't just boys' subjects. I was flabbergasted. I wish I'd written to the school to say that now.

Bang on, Barracker.