To wish that going for a first trimester abortion was seen like have a tooth out?

[QueenArseClangers]

Without all the societal guilt and judgement heaped upon women?
I really wished it was viewed as a bog standard procedure, I’m sure women would feel a lot more in control of their reproductive health if it was.

I read exactly what you said every time, YourWanMajella I've just been disagreeing with you. I thought you said that we're allowed to have our own opinions. Apparently not, only you are, and people who agree with you.

And btw, I do know what the word 'ethics' means, I studied it. I don't think you do, though. I'm not speaking for you or for anyone, I'm speaking about it objectively. It's not about how you feel about it.

Objectively, the foetus is a potential life, which has a heartbeat, but it's dependent on the mother, obviously, so it obviously shouldn't be considered as of equal value until it's born. I'm actually not saying you're wrong, but just trying to demonstrate my point in a logical way. No one is telling you how you should feel about it, I'm just giving the reason why it's an issue that so many people agonise over.

I'm fully expecting a shouting response from you. Being angry doesn't make you right, it just shows that you're not able to create a proper argument.

"I'm just giving the reason why it's an issue that so many people agonise over."
Of course a lot of people agonise over it. I would have done myself-and it is very very unlikely tht I would have ever decided to have an abortion. But that is the point of the thread. That would have been my decision. I have no right to expect other people to feel the same or to impose my world view on other people. Access to a legal medical procedure that we as a society have decided is acceptable under certain conditions should not come with a value judgement attached. Every individual woman can access it or not as her own personal code dictates.

Agreed. But I still feel that comparing it to a tooth extraction trivialises it for women who have had terminations for more tragic reasons, like a baby that's incompatible with life. Nobody grieves for a lost tooth.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Feels like pro-abortion views are trying to minimise the significance of abortion, perhaps to minimise their feelings/guilt (yes yes not everyone felt guilty about it). I respect those who are pro-choice/pro-abortion who stand by their views whilst also acknowledging that abortion obviously does end a life or potential life and maintain their view that they feel that's their right to end that life at thst stage.

As a meat-eater i respect those who acknowledge theyve taken an animals life to feed their wants. They just dont see huge signficance to the animals life. Surely that makes more sense than denial.

Some pro-choice/pro-abortion views just sound brainwashed and in denial that abortion ends a future life before.

But I still feel that comparing it to a tooth extraction trivialises it for women who have had terminations for more tragic reasons, like a baby that's incompatible with life.

Which is why there should be opt in counselling and further discussion if that particular woman needs it. It would be very simple to do; no more than a tick box on a form, then all HCP would know which route to take. My approaching an abortion with practicality, and relief that it's over has no impact whatsoever on anyone else and I have as much right to ease of access and minimal discussion as a woman who needs much more counselling and support. My approach does not trivialise or detract from your approach.

in denial that abortion ends a future life before

At the risk of being glib - so what if it does? What are we supposed to do with that information? Flagellate ourselves?

I am totally pro choice and I am not brain washed. I would never argue that it's just a ball of cells and it's not ending a life etc. I respect your view and you are entitled to approach your pregnancy in your body however you want to. What I will never accept is that I have to handle my pregnancy in my body with you in mind.

Incidentally, nobody is "pro abortion". Some people are pro a woman being able to choose what happens to her own body.Some others are in favour of women being forced to give birth to babies they don't want.

No one is pro abortion are they?

You mean pro choice I think.

Of course for some women it’s a big huge choice of weighing up the pros and cons of having her child, for some women who are aborting a much wanted but disabled child, it’s agony, other women can’t wait to abort and feel nothing but relief afterwards. Others again can’t consider an abortion. It’s not cold to feel it’s no big deal it’s the way it is.

We are all different. Great. Fine.

The only important thing here is we have and continue to have the choice to have a safe free early termination.

For me personally it’s not anything to do with ethics it’s to do with my choice about my body.

What MsGame said. How far developed a foetus is is irrelevant, you aren't entitled to an opinion about what a other woman does with her pregnancy, ever, it's never your call to make on wether someone else is 'carrying a life', and attitudes like lots on this thread need to change.

I'll say it again - keep your beams out of other women's reproductive systems

No one is saying you should flagellate yourself, I certainly haven't. Just don't use ridiculous comparisons like a tooth extraction. Because it really isn't the same thing.

I think MrsOprah's comparison with vegetarianism is apt, because some people feel strongly about it yet others don't have a problem with killing animals to eat them. No one sees a problem with extracting a tooth.

Hear hear pro choice means pro the pregnant woman’s choice to do with her body what she thinks is best. No one else business at all.

But it's what ethics means, I don't see why it's a troubling word tbh. When life begins, vegetarianism, these are subjects you discuss in seminars, write essays about at university, and people write books about. It becomes personal when it's about your body, obviously.

Jesus Lizzie some people do feel that way!!!!!! Why can’t yiu grasp that???

Abstract talk about ethics is all fine. Great chat away.

However in the real practical world the only ethics that matter is that the pregnant woman has a choice to abort her baby for any reason she sees fit or chooses not to.

Because I don't agree with them, there is the personal choice obviously, but it is still a subject that is discussed as part of an ethics course at university. Write to the universities starting 'But it's not an ethical subject, you're not allowed to discuss the subject, it's none of your business.' I don't think you'd get very far lol.

Pro choice people are as happy to discuss it ethically as 'forced birthers' btw.

If voters are to be won over on the subject to vote for a change in the constitution in the Republic of Ireland referendum, they need to be won over in an ethical debate with the other side. You won't convince anyone by refusing to engage at that level.

Thimpu I have exactly the same experience as you- but despite being confident in my decision, I don't speak about it- then because I haven't mentioned it, it makes it a bigger thing that looks like I regret it.
I do get the dentistry comparison, no one denies people dental treatment in case it encourages people to not brush their teeth - yet with all things to do with women's sexual health there is an implied judgement- feckless women will be encouraged to use this as contraception- yes some will - as some people don't look after their teeth - but the value judgement of character doesn't happen in any other area of medicine. It's frustrating that women can't be given the benefit of the doubt about their own sexual lives and health

I've just been disagreeing with you. I thought you said that we're allowed to have our own opinions. Apparently not, only you are, and people who agree with you

NO you are not allowed to have an opinion on whether I PERSONALLY feel it is a matter of ethics or not. You do not get an opinion on what my opinion is, you do not get to say that everyone sees something X way when I am telling you that I do not.

That is so basic and obvious it is insane I need to tell you that once, let alone eleven thousand times!

Write to the universities starting 'But it's not an ethical subject, you're not allowed to discuss the subject, it's none of your business.' I don't think you'd get very far lol

They are allowed to, we just don't all have to see it the same way.

Why am I even bothering to argue with someone who can't understand that different people have different opinions?

Oh dear!

No I don’t think it’s an ethical debate. Not for me but if you do that’s fine.

You don’t get to tell me what is ethical for me or have any influence over what I choose to do with my body. I respect your views for your body and you should respect mine.

I would have an abortion if I got pregnant now. I have 6 kids and don’t want any more. The menopause is in full swing but mistakes happen. If I got pregnant I would abort in a heart beat and no it wouldn’t devastate me in the slightest. It would be a sensible pragmatic and best course of action for me.

I am happy to talk about the ethics- because I think it is important and interesting. But there is a time and a place for it. And that is not at the point where a woman is needing an abortion. And it should only involve people who want to be involved in a debate about ethics. Or people whose job it is to debate such things-kike the people we as a society delegate the consideration of such matters to.

The point of the OP's original post was not about the ethics of termination but about the stigma and shame attached to what is actually a medical procedure akin to countless others. Leaving all emotive content aside, it's the removal of something from the body. As someone who agonised over this and actually had a termination on Monday (turned out to be a silent, medically managed miscarriage but my choice had been made before I knew that) I found it thought provoking that I was asked over and over again if I was sure. In my pregnancies noone ever asked me if I was sure I wanted to keep the baby and yet the consequences of bringing a child into the world are at least as far reaching, if not more so. No woman chooses to abort lightly and while it's right that the process should be taken seriously, I see no reason why adding layers of guilt, secrecy and taboo to the experience should be deemed acceptable. The anonymous clinic unlabelled for fear of pro life protesters, the lack of discussion about termination among friends and family for fear of judgement - how can this be helpful? Shaming women for their choices when their reasons are deeply held and their (possible) distress intensely real is abhorrent.

not all abortions are "bog" standard, even in the 1st trimester.