To wonder what the world is coming to when the Daily Fail comments section shows more tolerance and understanding than Mumsnet

[worldsupsidedown]

So, I've name changed as I am thoroughly ashamed of having clicked on the side bar of shame, also having been reading an article in the DM at all.

However, there is a story about a very sweet couple - both, wait for it transpeople .

He was a woman and she was a man, they are young and in love, hard working, successful and when you scroll down to the comments are widely accepted by the readers. I mean these readers are generally considered to be the most closed minded and prejudiced people, but EVEN they are OK with it. Because you know what, it is OK.

However, here on Mumsnet no, no. no. He (the transman who was born a woman) would have to come and change alongside your children, get changed in your female only changing rooms, be in your 'safe spaces'. She (the very beautiful, very feminine transwoman who was born a man) would have to go and change with the men, wouldn't be allowed to use the ladies, wouldn't be allowed to access rape crisis if she was assaulted in those places....if you all got your way.

How the fuckity fuck can anyone justify their batshit opinions of that, the world has gone mad if you think that these people are not allowed to live their lives as the gender they identify with because of your petty prejudice and bigotry. Essentially it is none of your business.

So, AIBU to think WTF is going on when the DM and their readership is a more tolerant and accepting place than here?

Thanks for highlighting the petition on AIBU OP.

As has been said repeatedly, having concerns about adopting legislation on the basis of feelings (the sincerity of which cannot possibly be empirically measured) on any issue is not invalid.

It's equally not transphobic to want to discuss the possible impact of such legislation and ensure that the consequences for women and the Trans community have been properly assessed.

Like any couple I wish their relationship well.

I do however question their links to an organisation that supports intrusive medical intervention for children - intervention that has life long implications that they refuse to acknowledge and the use of utterly misleading statistics.

Tbh you and other posters on here have pretty neatly demonstrated exactly the point James Kirkup made in his article today blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/fear-and-loathing-grips-the-gender-debate/

Well done.

Right wing journalist says 'no prejudice here, move along', these's a surprise.

If you can't recognise the slew of alarmist threads about trans gendered people for the prejdice that they are, then I despair for you.

If you can't get your head round the idea that Mermaids don't give medical treatment and that they are a government funded charity who signpost children and parents to gender identity clinics that, in most cases have a two year waiting list before the child receives appropriate assessment by fully qualified clinicians, then you haven't spent much time looking at the issue.

You're right, the world has indeed gone crazy. But not for the reasons you mention. I read that and all I could do was Yet more trans nonsense that we are forced to blindly accept.

Here is the report.

Witnesses included Ana Lee (pictured), Mermaids, GIRES, Gendered Intelligence, Trans Media Watch.

And, of course, Action for Trans-Health. Who were the group who liked the comment 'let's fuck up some terfs', prior to the assault at speakers corner.

It was a scandalously one sided representation, hence the surprise after it was published that people could possibly object.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/390.pdf

Justanotherzombie...... I can’t say I appreciate the name calling by yet another keyboard warrior.
Re the Daily Mail article .... one of the happy couple is a woman .. you may choose whichever one suits your personal point of view. This would never have been “ news” had the couple not transitioned. That was MY point of view.
I am very concerned about possible law changes regarding self-id . Unlike you I do not believe that men who simply self-id are “ just extra women “....... your words in a previous posting . Neither do I use the anonymity of the internet to name- call other posters.

Sorry, completely off topic but three of the MPs on that report are Mims, Flick and Jess. Sounds like Mallory Towers.

Excellent article Darth

Thank you for posting

And slow clap for the OP who has completely missed the point regarding the concerns around self-id.

I’m no expert on this topic, but I think gender self identification is already protected by law where I am (Canada). I’m not really clear what problems, if any, have actually occurred in practice. Is something different proposed for the UK, or are Canadians already in the midst of the end times?

You're right, the world has indeed gone crazy. But not for the reasons you mention. I read that and all I could do was hmm Yet more trans nonsense that we are forced to blindly accept.

Thirty years ago, when I was campaigning against Section 28, this is exactly the kind of nonsense I heard all of the time. No research, no facts, no actual opinion, just a vague sense of annoyance and outrage that not everyone was exactly like them.

I'm a trsnswoman with a GRC (one of the first 100 to get one).
I'm very happy for this couple but having undergone surgery and HRT I can say I categorically disagree with a lot of what mermaids seems to stand for and as they are presented as a mouthpiece for mermaids then I have little respect for them as people.
I don't think you'll find anyone who does take issue with it, TBH.
I've also never met or spoken with anyone online or offline who has any issue with someone with a grc using the bathroom and facilities that align with their new gender..
self ID + the merging of women and transwomen into one category is potentially very damaging for both women + transpeople

1. We will not be able to create or campaign for our own safe spaces or rights (such as making transphobia a crime, trans specific SARC's and so on, as there'll be no differentiating between the 2)

1. There is a distinct lack of debate between feminists and TRA's with feminists being called bigots for just wanting a voice when their spaces are under threat.

1. Some so called transpeople are already doing harm to women in female spaces - see cases of "transwomen" flashing and attacking girls in bathrooms and also prisoners using their new "trans status" to be moved to a women's prison then taping and impregnating women. This isn't scaremongering it's already happening.

1. The word "transphobia" is being devalued and as such taken less seriously see the fact that MN is "transphobic" I have posted here many times under this name and others and have had just one transphobic comment that was dealt with appropriately I have also however had a new co worker put me in hospital after chanting slurs at me then waiting until we were alone and pouring freshly boiled coffee all down my lap I had severe burns from just below my belly button to just above my knees. If I say I have experienced transphobia it's getting to the point some (a growing minority) would assume someone disagreed with me or hurt my feelz by telling me I was born male.

1. Some may say "if a man will rape you I don't think a toilet sign will help you" but I think that's wrong as IMO the sexual threat here isn't rape but men who get off on control knowing that they're terrifying or hurting a woman in a way they can do nothing about. It will also make life a lot easier for men who for example fetishise women putting in tampons, peeing, pooping or like to plant video cameras.

1. AGP's are a thing and recognised by some well regarded trans organisations as under the umbrella of transpeople. AGP's are men with a fetish and I'll never recognise them as anything else.

1. This effects transwomen too because lets be honest if someone is in the women's bathroom or changing room wanting to cause fear, harm, distress or similar they're not going to stop and ask you if you have a vagina or a surgically constructed vagina. I could go on forever but I won't because I've already heard a few times I go on too much.

I also must say I have been on many threads and made my own about life as a transsexual I have never had any issue with MN. Well, I've received one very hurtful and transphobic comment but the poster was v quickly rounded on by other users, the comment was deleted and the thread continued as normal. I regularly read the feminism boards and will be attending the women's march next month I have never been made to feel unwelcome here even if I'm occasionally respectfully disagreed with.

Blimey. What a transphobic OP.

How dare you say she was born a man and he was born a woman. She was obviously born a woman, either in the wrong body or she has a female penis. Ditto for him.

There’s a lot about this I don’t understand.
“Trans women are women and we just want to be treated as other women are.” Ok.
“Let’s invite sun journalists to write about our wedding as it is so very remarkable.”
How are those two positions compatible?

And if you don't know that Mermaids don't offer any support to parents who are trying to follow the NHS's 'watchful waiting' guidance, then you have spent even less time looking at the issue @Stillscreaming

@ Clunj

It isn't about self id, clunj, most posters wouldn't be able to tell you what self id mean. The UK's next door neighbour, Ireland has had self id for over two years, with no problems at all. So it's not a lack of evidence of it not bring harmful.

A debate about self id wouldn't include rake amateurs wanting a say on the medical treatment of children, discussion about changing rooms or public loos, prison places or the allocation of pronouns. It wouldn't include images of people holding up placards with amusing slogans, this has nothing to do with self id.

@Stillscreaming

Yes I have looked at the issue and frankly I'm astounded they get govt funding.

No - they don't prescribe, but they encourage parents to contact those that will and counselling that encourages the inevitability of transition (when reputable studies have shown that the overwhelming majority of children who do not receive medical intervention decide to retain their natal sex).

Those that do receive puberty blockers are conversely more likely to move to transition.

Mermaids have repeatedly been on record maintaining "it's harmless" and/or underplaying the impact of the puberty blocking drug Lupron - a drug that's increasingly being prescribed off label for children (by which I mean used in ways it was not clinically tested for). There are law suits right now in the US where early users of Lupron (prescribed for precocious puberty) are suing for life changing side effects such as loss of bone density - to the point they have the bones of a person in their 80's in their twenties.

These are children whose puberty was "only" delayed by the drug - not prevented.

For those who never undergo a natural puberty the impact on future fertility are tremendous.

Yanbu.

shows more tolerance and understanding than Mumsnet

What in the world made you think MN is a tolerant forum? lol, do you not see how regularly threads are deleted, posts censored, users banned. Its anything but tolerant.

It was a scandalously one sided representation, hence the surprise after it was published that people could possibly object.

Anyone who takes the time to read the list will also see that Shelia Jefferris, Radical Feminist Legal Support Network, Scottish Women Against Pornography and many other groups were also consulted.

The governmental transgender report that concluded we should remove all three criteria from gaining a gender recognition certificate (ie self id) had Anna Lee as an expert witness. Someone who thinks puberty is optional.

It's not an 'amusing slogan'. Ffs.

It's an irresponsible, unhinged attitude, for a so-called expert.

Action for Trans Health, who were also asked to give verbal evidence, have written in their manifesto that all trans-people should be trained in the art of surgery so they can operate on one another, and all trans-prisoners should be released forthwith.

And if you think that sounds absolutely bat shit, you'd be right.

But the government still called them as an expert witness.

In Ireland, self ID, does not mean you go to the prison of the opposite sex. You're still not allowed.

There are only 149 people in Ireland with a GRC and they don't have anything like the level of transactivism that we have here.

It wouldn't be tolerated, according to all the discourse on the subject.

@stillscreaming NO I can't recognise a slew of alarmist threads about trans gendered people, which is why I would like a few pointed out to me. I didn't learn to read without help and I doubt I will learn to recognise transphobia without help.

I do recognise a lot of alarmist threads about how self ID and the blurring of sex and gender may be abused by non trans people.

@ DarthArts

In the UK medicines are prescribed by doctors, in this case usually consultants, in consultation with patients and their parents.

Can you tell me what qualifies you to know more about the prescription of these drugs than the consultants who are prescribing them at the moment?

@Stillscreaming would you mind posting the link? I would very much like to make my own mind up on these issues but it’s so hard when no one will give information that would help.

I don’t want to exist in an echo chamber. I’d like open debate and links like the 200 organisations consulted would be useful.

Otherwise I’ll just keep linking the petition everywhere in order to see the debate happen publicly.

@PeanutButter I'm so sorry that happened to you but thank you for explaining so clearly what transphobia is. Saying that Hannah wasn't born a woman or that Jake wasn't born a man isn't transphobic. It's a fact.

I gave up reading the OP because the amount of explanation needed to illustrate which person identified as which gender was verging on the ridiculous.

The medical profession is not infallible (ask any parent who has been through asd diagnosis). There are practitioners who have gone on the record about the massive pressure they are under to accept trans ideology. In this climate, mistakes will be made. That is a certainty.