To wonder what the world is coming to when the Daily Fail comments section shows more tolerance and understanding than Mumsnet

[worldsupsidedown]

So, I've name changed as I am thoroughly ashamed of having clicked on the side bar of shame, also having been reading an article in the DM at all.

However, there is a story about a very sweet couple - both, wait for it transpeople .

He was a woman and she was a man, they are young and in love, hard working, successful and when you scroll down to the comments are widely accepted by the readers. I mean these readers are generally considered to be the most closed minded and prejudiced people, but EVEN they are OK with it. Because you know what, it is OK.

However, here on Mumsnet no, no. no. He (the transman who was born a woman) would have to come and change alongside your children, get changed in your female only changing rooms, be in your 'safe spaces'. She (the very beautiful, very feminine transwoman who was born a man) would have to go and change with the men, wouldn't be allowed to use the ladies, wouldn't be allowed to access rape crisis if she was assaulted in those places....if you all got your way.

How the fuckity fuck can anyone justify their batshit opinions of that, the world has gone mad if you think that these people are not allowed to live their lives as the gender they identify with because of your petty prejudice and bigotry. Essentially it is none of your business.

So, AIBU to think WTF is going on when the DM and their readership is a more tolerant and accepting place than here?

But when people raise actual incidents, not hypothetical issues, but real life scenarios, you dismiss them.

No, when you come up with isolated incidents, I recognise them as isolated incidents. I don't think that every trans person has to be held to a different level of perfection than the rest of us. The occasional mother kills her child, that doesn't mean that all mothers are bad. The occasional woman commits a sexual crime, I don't paint all women with the same brush. Trans people don't have to be perfect to be recognised as worthy of rights.

You keep saying it's sensationalist and scaremongering and demanding proof and when people give you proof you dismiss it as being unimportant.

See above.

Do you disagree that women are being silenced, for instance? Because I can give you masses of proof of that.

I think that some people hold views so extream and hateful that they should be silenced. I don't see any lack of trans bashing (or terf bashing for that matter). There are extremists on both sides of this argument, who I'd be perfectly happy to see silenced.

Or will you just dismiss it?

You seem to think that becasue I don't accept what you say, that I'm dismissing you. I'm not dismissing you, I'm not dismissing the women who hold these views, I just don't agree with them.

And you still haven't answered my question. All you have said is you want people to stop saying what they are saying.

Your comment this week of 'do they all have ASG?' Is an example of the mind of hateful speech I'd like to see stopped. It's dehumanising. I'd like you to stop conflating trans people and sex offenders, it's dehumanising. I'd like to to recognise that if a woman is attacked, it's the fault of the attacker, not a whole community.

What is it you actually want?

You to recognise that you are talking about human beings with feelings. You to concede that the proposed changes to the GRA will do nothing but make the paperwork to transition a bit easier and cheaper. That there is unlikely to be a massive influx of extra GRCs issued because the wasn't in Canada and there wasn't in Ireland.

That women's rights and safety will be the same as they are now. There will still be no sex checks in public loos or changing rooms.

I'd like you to use people's preferred names and pronouns.

Stillscreaming

It's a small number of people. It just is. The government absolutely know how many gender recognition certificate they have issued.

The original estimate was about 5000. This is all online.

And of course, the trans umbrella has widened to include all sorts of people. That's the whole point. You say they won't want to change their gender. But they don't have to. If anything, it makes the percentage of people with a GRC even smaller.

A transvestite fetishist is hugely compelled, by a sexual motivation, to be seen as a woman. Transgenderism is a gift.

Nonetheless, what rights are you advocating for, for transpeople, that they don't already have?

Are you in favour of self ID, for instance?

What about

Agp and other fetishists?
Gender queer/fluid/flexible/nonbinary?
Transvestite?

As mentioned above.

How do you weed them out?

@worldupsidedown I don’t really participate in trans threads because I dislike the extremist views on both sides. However, I am posting on this one because I wanted to I think it’s pathetic that you are for posting (and goading) with a name change. At least have the courage of your convictions to say it in your real name. The “oh I didn’t want to admit I read the DM” thing doesn’t wash.

If you think women should compete with transwomen does that mean you think we should just have mixed sex sports?

Do you knew what, I've no idea. I've sat on my arse for the last 30 years becasue the girls I went to school with were 'uncomfortable' changing in front of a lesbians. It really put me off changing rooms.

I can throw in a few anecdotes about not seeing the podiums at the Olympics over run with trans athlete but I know that this isn't a debate about what actually happens, it's about what might happen. I imagine it's best to leave that sort of thing to the sporting body concerned. I'm sure they'll work things out.

I am not in favour of self ID.

I do think that there are a lot of threads started about trans people that have are just generated to get in a link to the petition.

Some of them seem to be based on something a transperson might or might not have done or said but it's used as an excuse to start another thread.

Trans people don't have to be perfect to be recognised as worthy of rights.

What rights!? What extra rights do you want? Spell it out for me.

The rest of your post is about social empathy. You cannot legislate for that.

Women have every right to disagree that the word woman should be changed to mean a social category.

Women have every right to point out the loopholes in a law that will disadvantage women.

You and I both know that the issue of self identification with regards to the GRC is only half of it.

The equality act has been highlighted as a result of the objections to the GRA proposed amendments.

The equality act means that anyone who says they are trans, is trans. A man can be called a woman.

A man who has all his genitalia, and enjoys that genitalia, has fathered children and is attracted to women can now be called a woman and, and under the equality act, must be regarded as such.

Quite apart from it being lunacy, no one in their right mind can fail to see how this will be exploited. Is being exploited.

Even if you take out all the actual incidences, of men taking women's public positions, men who identify 15-year-old girls on nights out, demanding access to the changing rooms at Topshop, men competing against women in sport, rapists being transferred to female prisons, etc, even if you disregard those incidences, and more, you are still looking at the very definition of the word woman meaning a feeling in a man's head.

Because men say so.

Doesn't that bother you?

Nonetheless, what rights are you advocating for, for transpeople, that they don't already have?

I'm not asking for any extra rights, I'm actually quite indifferent to the changes to the GRA around self id, most of the trans women I know are against. I just want it to be presented as what it really is, an exercise to make paperwork less arduous.

Agp and other fetishists?
Gender queer/fluid/flexible/nonbinary?
Transvestite?.

What about them? The changes in the GRA will make no difference to these people. I don't think that it's anymore likely that people with AGP, will apply for gender recognition certificates than pony girls will want to be legally recognised as horses or furries and stuffed animals.

Lots of people have fetishise, we have laws that protect us from them working out their fetishes in public,mankind wearing a latex lady suit to Tesco, will be arrested, just like they have always been.

The gender queer/fluid/flex/non binary have no desire to obtain GRCs, they don't feel themselves to be the opposit gender, they feel themselves to occupy the middle ground. Can't say they do me any harm but if they do become some kind of public nuisance, we can deal with it then. There are many things in the UK that are for the good of the vast majority that the odd person takes the piss out of, for example blue badges, the benefit system etc. We don't get rid of them because of the piss takers, we send the piss takers to jail.

Oh, FFS, OP, what did you hope to gain by starting this thread?

I am one of those people who are anti Self-ID. I don't know how many times I have to say this but ANTI SELF-ID IS NOT ANTI-TRANS. It is a poorly thought through policy, the potential consequences of which on women, and particularly vulnerable women, have not been considered. Shouting TERF every time someone tries to debate that does a disservice to women and to freedom of speech.

No-one has an issue with two trans people falling in love and living a happy life. And suggesting they do because they are anti Self-ID is goady and wrong.

Even if you take out all the actual incidences, of men taking women's public positions, men who identify 15-year-old girls on nights out, demanding access to the changing rooms at Topshop,

As a company, TopShop decided that anyone can use the changing room their most comfortable with. Nothing to do with the proposed laws.

'Men identifying as 15 year old girls on a night out' is a tad unlikely, why would anyone on a night out pretend not to meet the age requirements of the licensing laws?

men competing against women in sport,

Nothing to do with the proposed changed in the law.

rapists being transferred to female prisons,

The prison service decides who goes where, nothing to do with the proposed changes in the law.

..you are still looking at the very definition of the word woman meaning a feeling in a man's head.

I don't think that trans women are men. The entire medical profession don't think that trans women are men. The medical profession treat delusions with anti psychotics, not hormones and surgery.

Shouting TERF every time someone tries to debate that does a disservice to women and to freedom of speech.

No one is shouting 'TERF' but free speech has noting to do with no one being allowed to disagree with you or even shout 'TERF' at you.

Lots of people have fetishise, we have laws that protect us from them working out their fetishes in public,mankind wearing a latex lady suit to Tesco, will be arrested, just like they have always been

SO men that use the self id argument to gain access women's loos for perv reason will be arrested? How can they be?

OP if you seriously think self ID is a "non issue" then having the right to safe spaces, to ring fenced roles, to sex segregated hospital wards and prisons is also a "non issue" for you?

Believe me, I started off feeling uncomfortable reading all the threads here, too. And the more I read, the uncomfortable feeling came from realising that there was some truth in these threads and I was agreeing with them!

I am not anti trans rights, I'm pro women's rights, neither of these two group should have to budge up for the other.

The entire medical profession don't think that trans women are men

Some do! Lots do!

I don't think that it's anymore likely that people with AGP, will apply for gender recognition certificates than pony girls will want to be legally recognised as horses or furries and stuffed animals

It might not be unlikely....but I can't see what there is to stop someone applying for it.

I do agree with a lot of what you say. But I do think there are concerns over the demedicalising of the transition process.

I have been described as 'one of those trans people who thinks it's about surgery' by some on twitter. Actually, it was a lot worse than that and I got blocked by Lily Maynard.

I've also been called some really awful things by people on the other side of the debate.

I've also managed to have some conversations with people that haven't got into name calling and verbal abuse online - where I have raised concerns and asked if people can see concerns.

The GRA and the EA are massively open to interpretation on what gender reassignment means. At least the current GRC still shows that people have been through a medicalised process.

I don't think that self ID is the answer. There may be a middle ground amount the sheer amount of paperwork you need to get one but I do think that the medical profession should be involved.

There's also no such thing as a 'female penis' - but I have never actually read that online. Maybe I am not reading the correct tweets?

The online world of Twitter and Tumbler feel far away from my everyday reality when it comes to being trans.

I knew this thread would be about trans issues. I'm getting a bit fed up of all the frothing over trans issues on MN. Why does it have to be such a great big deal and every single day something new to whine about.

@Stillscreaming - actually, plenty of posters have been called TERFs and trans-phobic and trans-haters on MN for debating the issues around Self-ID. And the OPs original post implied that nobody debating the issue would be happy for a trans couple in love, which is just offensive and unnecessary.

MN threads dont always cover themselves in glory when it comes to overweight people or social housing tenants either.

Why does it have to be such a great big deal and every single day something new to whine about

You could start a thread asking that.

I wonder how that would go?

SO men that use the self id argument to gain access women's loos for perv reason will be arrested? How can they be?

You're conflating two things here. Right now, anyone can use any loo they please, no law is broken. Perving at women in the loo, taking photos or looking under the door, is against the law, no matter what gender you are.

The proposed changes to self id will have no impact on this.

I'm more than happy to criticise transvestite fetishists who are jumping on the bandwagon. And I note you didn't answer my question, do you understand the difference?

This is something I see time and time again. Can I ask where is the RL evidence that fetishists are abusing the system in countries that have self ID? There are thousands of people walking around getting on with their lives who have fetishes that many would find unsavoury, but unless they are acting them out in public or against others wishes no one will know and there aren’t really any ill effects on anyone else. For instance I’m told there are quite a lot of men who have fetishes for women in nurses uniform, I don’t see mass hysteria about them making unnecessary medical appointments or hanging round hospitals to get off on it but it would be easy to do so if they wanted. Unless regular abuses are actually happening this sounds like scaremongering.

OP if you seriously think self ID is a "non issue" then having the right to safe spaces, to ring fenced roles, to sex segregated hospital wards and prisons is also a "non issue" for you?

I'm not the OP, we have mixed sex wards now, they will. That will not be impacted by the proposed changes in the law.

I've answered the prison question a couple of pages back.

What safe spaces are you talking about?

It will impact this, women will be too scared to challenge men.
Men who have a sense of entitlement often get angry when challenged.

Fight for a third space.

I don't think that trans women are men. The entire medical profession don't think that trans women are men. The medical profession treat delusions with anti psychotics, not hormones and surgery.

Ok. Got it.

yetanothertranswoman

There's also no such thing as a 'female penis' - but I have never actually read that online. Maybe I am not reading the correct tweets?

Because women are constantly told that this is a minority and it's nothing to worry about, they have collated some data on this.

This website, among others. They have divided them into categories.

anti-female-receipts.tumblr.com/

And I'm sure someone will come along and say but this is niche. First of all it's not niche. It's a fairly widespread opinion, even if it's not expressed in this particularly graphic way.

Secondly, it is this very cohort who are being legitimised.

Transsexuals and men with gender dysphoria are not part of this cohort.

No medical professional I know believes people with XY chromosomes are female and indeed believing that would require them to jettison their training as far back as gcse biology.
How they express themselves on this issue publicly is a different matter, of course. They have jobs to keep hold of.

And the OPs original post implied that nobody debating the issue would be happy for a trans couple in love, which is just offensive and unnecessary.

No, but there have been posters who couldn't stop themselves from pointing out that the happy couple were 'born a man' and 'born a woman'. There's no need for that.